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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:32
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The rist tyrants didn't have large government institutions, just a gang of armed thugs. If there were no government, there's still be gangs of armed thugs, they'd just be working for the corporations. |
Absolutely. But I'm not in favor of anarchy - go argue this point with Ramo. I'll probably even agree with you.
In a Libertarian society, if a corporation hires a hit squad, then the hit squad and those who did the hiring are going to prison for whatever crimes they commit.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:32
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quote:
-Communists INTEND to realize society's fullest potential by allowing resources to be fully utilized by all members of society. |
Without letting silly thing like ownership or property get in the way.
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They realize that everyone benefits from society, so all owe a debt to society. |
The debt, of course, means that the rich owe their money to the poor, and poor don't owe the rich diddlyshit.
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The removal of barriers to personal development allows individuals to prosper. |
Only those who most benefit from stolen goods, anyway. The rich aren't prospering - they're going downhill relative to their previous position.
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-Libertarians INTEND to ensure that no one gets in the way of corporate corruption, theft, or monopolizing. |
This is blatantly untrue. Libertarians are interested in putting thieves in prison, and if corporate leaders use their positions to commit theft, they go to prison too.
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People stuck with below living wages are told to get a better job. |
Duh, of course.
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Tell you what. You tell me where your family and friends are, and I'll try to arrange having them killed as long as you never have to pay taxes again. I'm sure you'd jump at that opportunity. |
Actually, I'd put you in prison for murder. On the other hand, if you eradicate taxes, and if someone in my family dies from starvation (which wouldn't happen because families work together to help each other, that's part of the point), I would consider that to be a moral trade.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:32
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quote:
(which wouldn't happen because families work together to help each other, that's part of the point) |
Trust me not all families work together, just look at the number of deadbeat dad's in the world, so we shouldn't rely on families to make Libertarianism work. What happens when your family dies in an accident? Or what happens with child abuse? WHo pays for orphans or foster children?
Here's the problem, people don't enter the world with zero debts to society. Infants cannot provide for themselves at all, not even when it comes to eating, so these children owe a debt to their caretakers. However, their caretakers owe a debt to the forces of civilization that protects them from violence and that ensures the operation of some type of economy. If armed gangs of thugs run around disrupting life, it is hard for families to provide for their children.
However, I'm sure that you will make a point that families can arm themselves to ensure their own security. It's true they can, and in many cases it will work. The thing is, this forces them to devote far more resources to get equal or less protection than society could provide for them. You will say that Libertarianism isn't anarchy, because it has courts, police etc. Yet who pays for this and how? It's hard having it both ways, that society still provides all of the comforts we as a people have grown found of, yet we pay nothing.
So who pays, and how do they pay? What would a Libertian society provide?
EDIT: Though I think we need MAJOR changes to society as well. I'm all for social Libertainism, but I think that full blown Libertarianism wouldn't work, that it would break down either into Anarchy or a Corporate dictatorship. I guess in the same way that socialists are communist-lites, I'm a Libertarian-lite. However, if you can ever provide me with some kind of structural safeguards from the depreditations of organizations that aren't governments, then I would become a full blown Libertarian. 
Last edited by korn469 on 10-12-2003 at 01:44
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09-12-2003 23:42
A couple of months during the summer would be enough. It would also make people think twice about going to war so quickly when they themselves or their own children could be killed as a result.
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