10-12-2003 13:31									#1
	Resignation from FAM. Got spare money?

Because of my "radical ideas" and the fact that I "goofed" and I obviously have no clue what I'm doing, not to mention the fact that I put our nation's national security at risk because I somehow "PROMISED' CFC Equilibrium and everyone seems to be appalled that I could even think of offering compromising idea's to another team in order to work agreements out:

Effective immediately, I am resigning from the FAM.

Perhaps I sound sour, but I simply don't have to time to deal with other nations and worry that the next thing I say is going to either piss their team off, or piss my own team off. Lesson to be learned here: Evidentially the best way to foster friendships between two nations is to not say anything nor put a foot forward. Whatever.

Respectfully,

WB

	10-12-2003 13:35									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Please WB, don't do that. While I don't agree exactly with what happened in the chat, I can certainly understand why it did. That said, I don't feel that there was anything said in that chat that is permanent and can't be rectified with continued talks with CFC. I believe a poll on this issue is in order though.

WB, you have always been an excellent diplomat. Please reconsider.

	10-12-2003 13:40									#3
	Put an end to popups!

WB, please reconsider. We have all made mistakes, but giving up almost a year of brilliant and commendable work only for one slip up is not really worth it. Furthermore, like I said in the CFC thread, I take full responsibility for this since I too was present. I do trust, however, that the team will make a rightful decision which in retrospect will make these comments insignificant.

You are one of the best people we have and I doubt we could get a replacement to fill your shoes. Please think this over.

-MZ

	10-12-2003 13:54									#4
	Tired of ads?

WB, now it's not the time to resign !

Your idea of giving up Equilibrium is not at all radical, it merits further discussion among all members. And who is most qualified to lead this discussion than you.

	10-12-2003 14:20									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by rush Your idea of giving up Equilibrium is not at all radical, it merits further discussion among all members. And who is most qualified to lead this discussion than you.

As I have stated in chat, I happen to think that it's an idea with potential merit, I agree with WhiteBandit and Master Zen there. Call me crazy if you want.

My objections were to our negotiating team suggesting the possibility of such an important concession by Apolyton before formal negotiations even begin.

It was an honest mistake and I respect it as that.

I must insist, however, that we try to refrain from such mistakes in the future where possible. The mistake was NOT that the idea was conceived, the mistake was the decision to field the idea to CFC before a thorough discussion by our own team. Our own team needs to decide how near and dear something like Equilibrium is to us before we suggest to CFC that it's something we're thinking about putting on the table.

------------------

As for WhiteBandit:

My apologies for what I feel to have been the necessity to be harsh in this situation. I don't like being put in situations like this, especially where good friends are invovled, but it's important from a professional standpoint that we do these things right.

We've all made mistakes and we've all done things that pissed people on our team off. Hell, I know I've done it as well, both here and in other teams I've been in and I've thought that I didn't do anything deserving of rebuke when others thought I did, too. Stuff like this happens. We cope, we put it behind us, and we move on.

I hope you reconsider your decision to completely give up on the FAM entirely, as your talent for your conciliatory diplomatic style still has a place on this team and in the FAM. It's still going to be needed in other situations more suited to its use and, frankly, you're probably the nicest diplomat we have and thus an invaluable resource.

	10-12-2003 15:01									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

But we NEED you WB! Who else has the ability to deal with Goonie without snapping?

There are so few of us able to do that that you are a very valuable quantity.

	10-12-2003 18:12									#7
	Got spare money?

I was under the Impression that we had this discussion a while back and it was kind of decided that we would wait until end of the war to think on it any more.

But now, we need the FAM and Consuls to get together and have policy check sessions.

E_T

	10-12-2003 20:57									#8
	Support Apolyton

WB, as the others have said, it would be a shame if you resigned.

These guys can seem come down hard on small mistakes. Trust me, I've experienced this sort of thing many many times. In retrospect you realize that all they're really trying to do is make the team better and that can seem to trump what they're really thinking. I even have a quote about me in the chatroom where I told how I once woke up from a dream because in it BF posted screenshots for GCA and I needed to find a way to get up and bash him in the head.

	11-12-2003 02:04									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

well this thread and this thread Here Lead me to believe all is not well here.

Maybe the leadership needs to take a step back and examine what is causing this.

I agree the game is at a critical juncture, I agree if we have any chance of winning it we need to focas on the game, but not at the expense of the group having fun.

WB if you are frustrated please consider taking some time off and take a break but I hope you come back.

In the future before we engage in involved negotiations with any Civ we should probably define a RANGE of acceptable solutions for the FAM. That way they have some leeway in negotiations without feeling like they all have to go back and do "the mother may I' routine all the time.

This is just a thought but its what Im insisting upon in PtWDG II as the Monkey Ambassador.

Now I agree that game is no where as serious as this one but still a range of options would really empower the FAM to do there jobs.

Just MHO!

	11-12-2003 04:30									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

goddamnit, it's getting so that a guy can't take a night off anymore

What's really wrong here is that the situation with CFC is one that we've been kicking around and talking around but never one we've settled on. WB and MZ and I know the different scenerios and options we have available to us in negotiations. Sounds like we may have accidentally relented too easily, but it also sounds like people went off WAY too hard on WB for that.

I'm not accepting WB's resignation until I've had a chat with him first. And I'm going to chat with MZ and the Consuls to figure out what the bottom line is.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 04:47									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

OK, I just reviewed the chat betwen WB, MZ, and Zarn and forgive me for my somewhat biased position but I don't think that WB or MZ did anything wrong. They made no promises or offers, couched any suggestions as mere ideas and basicly stated what Zarn was saying a moment before he said it, which is excellent negotiations work to appear generous by suggesting first what you know they are going to ask for.

Ideally, I would have prefered that we settle BoP first, THEN talk to Zarn, but chats happen and Consuls were already for us to work this out.

Frankly, I think that whoever got on WB's case needs to back the hell off. If you still have a problem with how this was handled, you should speak to me about it.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 08:17									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Togas Frankly, I think that whoever got on WB's case needs to back the hell off. If you still have a problem with how this was handled, you should speak to me about it.

Well, more than one of us "got on WB's case", actually.

For my part, I told him it was an "honest mistake", but that we should PLEASE refrain from that in the future. If people have suggestions of concessions we might make to the other team, they should run those potential concessions by their own team before suggesting them to the OTHER team. By suggesting them to the other team, even if as only an "idea", it raises hope in the other team that such a concession is likely to come from us. Even if they understood that it was merely an idea by the ambassador and not speaking for the team, it still raises expectations and sets the situation up for a dissapointment if our team doesn't agree with our ambassador.

So I see this as an honest mistake that I don't greatly begrudge WhiteBandit for making. I know I've made FAR WORSE mistakes myself so that part is aside from the point. What I feel needs to happen is that it needs to be pointed out that we please try to be more careful in the future. That's my concern. The "damage" (per se) may be particularly minor or it may be greater, depending on how much CFC reads into the comments - something we honestly don't know.

Let's just try to use this as a lesson so we avoid an internal conflict on something like it in the future.

If you have a suggestion on a potential concession, just please suggest it to the team (especially your supervisors if you have them) and clear it before suggesting it to your negotiating partner. A simple guideline that should help keep ambassador and team in line with one another.