11-12-2003 02:48									#1
	Sentencing in Europe Tired of ads?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0-2003Dec4.html

quote: HAMBURG, Dec. 4 -- Relatives of American victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks expressed their grief in a German court Thursday and asked its panel of judges to sentence a Moroccan man accused of being an accessory in the plot to the maximum prison term. Abdelghani Mzoudi, 30, an engineering student, is charged with more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder and membership in a terrorist organization for allegedly providing logistical support to the Hamburg cell that led the attacks. In February, another Moroccan, Mounir Motassadeq, was sentenced to 15 years in prison, the maximum allowed, on the same charges. He has appealed. "It is difficult to lose a loved one in a tragedy, but it is devastating to lose him to murder," Debra Burlingame of Pelham Manor, N.Y., said about the death of her brother, Charles Burlingame III, the pilot of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. "He was slaughtered like an animal. . . . I respectfully ask that if [Mzoudi] is convicted, he be sentenced to the maximum penalty available, 15 years." Burlingame said that would amount to less than two days in prison for each victim. After the hearing, Burlingame described Mzoudi as "an unreachable, lost soul." ...

Is life without parole completely unheard of in Europe? What exactly would a person have to do in order to be sentenced to 20 years?

	11-12-2003 02:52									#2
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"Whole life" sentences are an option in Britain, though in practice they are fairly rare.

	11-12-2003 02:52									#3
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On the other hand you can't judge that guy just by the newspaper article, the court probably knows what they are doing. I hope.

	11-12-2003 02:55									#4
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in Germany you can get life with no option to get free before death, namely when put into closed high security psychiatry after prison. if you're not a psychotic, you won't get more than 15 years I'm afraid.

	11-12-2003 02:56									#5
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How much did the RAF get?

	11-12-2003 03:31									#6
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They acquited one after 20 years.

Prosecution proposed 17N gets 10,900 years of prison in total. That's a bit overkill although it can enter the Guiness.

edit:correction

	11-12-2003 03:33									#7
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well, the courts in most western countries are getting more lenient these days

	11-12-2003 03:57									#8
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true, but those were usually labeled mentally unstable as well... I'm not an expert on this anyway

	11-12-2003 04:00									#9
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20 years is the max in Belgium. And if you are a good boy, you may be freed at 2/3 of your time.
Many prisonners are thus interested in being good boys.

Harsh sentences makes harsh criminals.
Life or very long term sentences fabricates wild beasts. What would the interest be of behaving nice if there is absolutely no hope of a better situation (freedom while you are still 'young')?
When a life convict escapes and takes hostages, killing a few of them is no problem, his situation cannot be worse.
When a 15-20year convict escapes and takes hostages, killing only one of them will bring him 15-20 other years (new crime, new sentence).
I prefer to be hostage of the second one...

When someone knows (or feels) his situation cannot be worse or has no way of improving his current situation, he will use desperate means, increasing the level of violence in the prison/society.

I think this may be one of the element that makes Europe (and Canada?) less violent places than USA or Asia?.

	11-12-2003 04:05									#10
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Yep. The violent crime rate in Western Europe is several times lower than in the US. As far as I'm concerned, the European justice system is generally far better than the American justice in every respect.

	11-12-2003 04:08									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dry 20 years is the max in Belgium. And if you are a good boy, you may be freed at 2/3 of your time. Many prisonners are thus interested in being good boys. Harsh sentences makes harsh criminals. Life or very long term sentences fabricates wild beasts. What would the interest be of behaving nice if there is absolutely no hope of a better situation (freedom while you are still 'young')? When a life convict escapes and takes hostages, killing a few of them is no problem, his situation cannot be worse. When a 15-20year convict escapes and takes hostages, killing only one of them will bring him 15-20 other years (new crime, new sentence). I prefer to be hostage of the second one... When someone knows (or feels) his situation cannot be worse or has no way of improving his current situation, he will use desperate means, increasing the level of violence in the prison/society. I think this may be one of the element that makes Europe (and Canada?) less violent places than USA or Asia?.

How many chances should the state extent to a person that shows little regard for a human life. If a person is convicted of some kind of theft or some crime that is not that serious then I agree that there is little benifit of sending them to prision for long periods of time. But what about murder, Rape, or continuous criminal behavoir. Where exactly should the state conclude that you are a threat to society and no longer need to be allowed to interact with it?

	11-12-2003 04:09									#12
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How many chances should I give to a state that shows little regard for a human life?

	11-12-2003 04:18									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Abdelghani Mzoudi, 30, an engineering student, is charged with more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder and membership in a terrorist organization for allegedly providing logistical support to the Hamburg cell that led the attacks. Is life without parole completely unheard of in Europe? What exactly would a person have to do in order to be sentenced to 20 years?

Murder someone. Accessory to murder is a far lesser charge, as is membership of a terrorist organisation (since membership doesn't include any attacks, simly being a member).

	11-12-2003 04:19									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Is life without parole completely unheard of in Europe? What exactly would a person have to do in order to be sentenced to 20 years?

Ad 1, not completely, but mostly. And that's good that way.

As for the german case, you have the leniency clause for accessory which converts threat of a life sentence to 3-15 years, IIRC. As this is a non-harmonized area of penal law, the reference to "Europe" does not make much sense. In Austria for example, accessory to murder carries the same threat of punishment as murder.

	11-12-2003 04:22									#15
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but 15 is max right?

	11-12-2003 04:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber But what about murder, Rape, or continuous criminal behavoir. Where exactly should the state conclude that you are a threat to society and no longer need to be allowed to interact with it?

Which is an issue of preventive measure, not punishment. If you have killed and are a threat to society, you go to the "Anstalt". Psychiatric treatment under security confinement.

No lawyer here pleads on not temporary "insanity" in severe crime cases as it would put his client into much more **** than the normal prison sentence.

	11-12-2003 04:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion but 15 is max right?

I think it's 3-15 years, yes, but as I said I'm not fully sure on this.

	11-12-2003 04:26									#18
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and then Anstalt... gibt's da ne steirische Variante von?

	11-12-2003 04:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber How many chances should the state extent to a person that shows little regard for a human life. If a person is convicted of some kind of theft or some crime that is not that serious then I agree that there is little benifit of sending them to prision for long periods of time. But what about murder, Rape, or continuous criminal behavoir. Where exactly should the state conclude that you are a threat to society and no longer need to be allowed to interact with it?

It is not a question of number of chances.
It is a question of what is most efficient. 10, 20, 30, 50 years max? Life? I don't know.
It is almost sure 10 years is not enough for a criminal to understand or to change, and thus to protect the society. 50 years is probably too much. The optimum lies somewhere inbetween.
When I compare the level of violence between the USA and Europe, I do not think that harsh penalties are efficient.

The idea is not to be just, fair or moral. The idea is to lower the level of violence as low as possible, to save lifes.
It probably means unfairness from the victim point of view, but some lives are at that price.

	11-12-2003 04:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Which is an issue of preventive measure, not punishment. If you have killed and are a threat to society, you go to the "Anstalt". Psychiatric treatment under security confinement. No lawyer here pleads on not temporary "insanity" in severe crime cases as it would put his client into much more **** than the normal prison sentence.

Maybe that's the problem here in the states. Criminals are pretty much thrown in together. I do think there should be an attempt to put people in different areas depending on what they done. I dont know how economical viable that would be here though..

	11-12-2003 04:41									#21
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The perpetrators of the Achille Lauro attack are now free. Does anyone know what happened to them? Are they back in the middle east conducting more terrorist operations?

Of course, there was that nice job the German police did with the Bader-Myerhoff gang.

	11-12-2003 04:44									#22
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Ad 1, not completely, but mostly. And that's good that way.

How so?

quote: As this is a non-harmonized area of penal law, the reference to "Europe" does not make much sense.

The article got me interested in sentencing practices of Europe.

quote: In Austria for example, accessory to murder carries the same threat of punishment as murder.

Let's take this case as an example. Would it be 3-15 years for each count or in total? If it is for each count would they sentences be concurrent, consecutive, or would that be solely up to the judge?

	11-12-2003 04:45									#23
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quote: When I compare the level of violence between the USA and Europe, I do not think that harsh penalties are efficient.

The harsh penalties have been instituted relatively recently. It used to be much more lenient here in the US.

That said, the level of violent crime has dropped pretty consistently under the harsh sentences, even as our population has increased. But since this stuff takes decades to show its full impact, this data is only preliminary.

	11-12-2003 12:20									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How so?

A silly, utterly useless practice. What for should we have it?

"Let's take this case as an example. Would it be 3-15 years for each count or in total?"

I think it is seen as one crime. Anyway, the "times" for each murder would not be added up, so it's 15 years maximum.

	11-12-2003 12:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion and then Anstalt... gibt's da ne steirische Variante von?

Usually it's Anstalt first. Our version is "Anstalt für geistig abnorme Rechtsbrecher" and "Anstalt für gefährliche Rückfalltäter". Though both are in lower Austria, not Styria IIRC...

	11-12-2003 12:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler A silly, utterly useless practice.

You're not really telling me anything. How is it a silly, utterly useless practice? I'm not interested in advocating for it. I'm only interested in trying to better understand your position on the matter.

quote: I think it is seen as one crime. Anyway, the "times" for each murder would not be added up,

I find this curious. Is there any reason why a person wouldn't be sentenced for each time the committed a crime?

	11-12-2003 13:21									#27
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DinoDoc, I'm not a supporter of DP (except in exceptional times, for example war), but it's fooocking redicilous. Life here is 12 years. Can you dig it?
It is RARELY used. You can kill, you can murder.. you'll likely get less than that. We are one of the most, if not the most violent crime ridden countries in the 'western europe'. At one point our capital Helsinki, my former home, held the title of murder capital in Europe. Can you dig it?

So it's not like we haven't heard of crime. Foreign countries, we are particulary known as violent folks. Stereotype of American being fat, Russians being drunks, we are drunk and violent. Can you dig it?

We are a country, where I can kick someones butt seriosuly without getting sentenced to jail. I can stab a man, almost to death and get paroled sentence, and most likely will. We are a country, where persons resume changed court decision to give him paroled sentence instead of short prison time for raping. We have accepted raping a woman being small crime, rarely anyone goes to jail for it. Can you dig it?

Physical violence, hurting someone, killing someone, beating someone up, stabbing them, kidnapping, braking into peoples home is nothing. You kill, you get out in half anyway if you're first timer. 6 years at most and you're free! Be even more clever, and drive a person over. You might not go to jail for a day. Be little drunk, your sentence WILL get reduced, after all how could you drive when you're drunk -> it wasn't your intention -> not your fault!!!! Can you dig it?

I say **** this collective humankind saving bullshit. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime for Gods sake!
It's the Finnish backwards thinking we are all safe thinking. Statistics don't agree! It is safe, sure.. but don't be surprised if someone stabs some of your loved one death, and gets out after 2 summers and comes after you. **** that. I'm so sick of this bullshit.

Of course, defending peoples freedom of not being touched and beat up is against criminals freedoms! After all, we need to understand why it happened.. it IS societies fault, and society must fix it by rehabing this mothereless person back to society, NO MATTER if the person indicates he's not willing to fit back.

Remember: Every person is good in heart, and if they kill someone, it just means they feel bad inside and we shouldn't make the pain any bigger.... screw everyone who knows the victims!

	11-12-2003 13:26									#28
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Europeans in general are not as violent as american. I blame capitalism for the ultra-violence that pervades american society. Keep in mind I still support capitalism though- I'm not some commie. But our ultra competitive society does create problems of its own.

I do believe in harsh punishment. You don't have to worry about them escaping if they would just design an escape proof prison. And don't tell me no prison can be escape-proof. I am certain they can come up with something.

lock em up and throw away the key.

	11-12-2003 13:28									#29
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Oh, and just before our 3-time killer escaped prison, they changed the rules that even big crime guys like killers and murderers have regular vacations Can you believe it? Vacation from prison? WTF?

And they also changed, that if you escape, you can get more to sentence. Mostly meaning you don't get your first parole when it's time to apply for it, not more REAL hard time. Because after all, escaping is natural for humans.. so we shouldn't punish them for doing it.
Can you dig it?

	11-12-2003 13:34									#30
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Not to mention we are paradise for international criminals. I mean, how can you not love it when you can kill, sell 90000000000000000 kilos of heroin, kill 10 people more, kidnap, rape, steal, kill few cops, steal more, make frauds and get 400 000 euros for it, hide it, burn few houses down and kick little dog puppy in the stomach and get 12 years? This is when you likely get 12 years but... don't you just love it? I'd love it if I was criminal.

And.. it's good, because you can at the same time get that welfare check, dental care, everything for free!
It's worth it!