02-05-2004 20:47									#451
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs I compiled the latest build, added in the more recent changes, and am getting something similar. It crashes when I should get a popup message from a goody hut and when I try to use the city building manager.

Anything useful in the crash log?

	03-05-2004 00:54									#452
	Crash Reports Remove this text

As promised, though a bit late (sorry but during the week I am too busy with earning money ), here my crash.txt report:

The first crash has been expected on GrantAdvance in NaturalWonders (and crash.txt says something about it ):

code:

... I GrantAdvance:
if(!HasAdvance(0, ID_ADVANCE_SUBNEURAL_ADS)){
	GrantAdvance(0, AdvanceDB(ADVANCE_SUBNEURAL_ADS));
}
  
... therefore I crash:
  0x00468795  [?GiveAdvance@Advances@@QAEXJW4CAUSE_SCI@@H@Z + 0x65]
  0x004c6d7d  [?GEVHookCallback@GrantAdvanceEvent@@EAE? AW4GAME_EVENT_HOOK_DISPOSITION@@W4GAME_EVENT@@PAVG
ameEventArgList@@@Z + 0x5d]
  0x00562019  [?Activate@GameEventHook@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@PAVGameEventArgList@@AAJ@Z + 0x29]
  0x00562a62  [?ActivateHook@GameEventManager@@QAE? AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@W4GAME_EVENT@@PAVGameEventArgLi
st@@AAJ@Z + 0x22]
  0x00560cde  [?Process@GameEvent@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@AAH@Z + 0x3e]
  0x005627c7  [?Process@GameEventManager@@QAE?AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@XZ + 0x87]
  0x00562707  [?ArglistAddEvent@GameEventManager@@QAE? AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@W4GAME_EVENT_INSERT@@W4GAME_EVE
NT@@PAVGameEventArgList@@@Z + 0x1c7]
  0x0056251c  [?AddEvent@GameEventManager@@QAA? AW4GAME_EVENT_ERR@@W4GAME_EVENT_INSERT@@W4GAME_EVE
NT@@ZZ + 0xcc]
  0x0040b6e9  [?InitializeGame@CivApp@@QAEJAAVCivArchive@@@Z + 0x4c9]
  0x0040d53d  [?Execute@StartGameAction@@UAAXPAVaui_Control@@KK@Z + 0xd]
  0x0040c480  [?ProcessUI@CivApp@@QAEJKAAK@Z + 0x1a0]
  0x0040c882  [?Process@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0x112]
  0x00407608  [?CivWinMain@@YGHPAUHINSTANCE__@@0PADH@Z + 0x3a8]
  0x004070c5  [WinMain@16 + 0x65]
  0x00792eec  [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x134]
  0x77e7eb69  [__onexitbegin + 0x7738aa91]

code:

  0x00447d45  [? DrawColorizedOverlayIntoMix@TiledMap@@QAEJPAGJJG@Z
 + 0x135]
  0x0041549b  [?DrawSelectionBrackets@UnitActor@@QAEXXZ + 0x1fb]
  0x004146df  [?Draw@UnitActor@@QAEHH@Z + 0x35f]
  0x0043d080  [?PaintUnitActor@TiledMap@@QAEXPAVUnitActor@@H@Z + 0x40]
  0x0042cc7c  [?DrawActiveUnits@Director@@QAEXPAUtagRECT@@J@Z + 0x8c]
  0x0043e20c  [? RepaintSprites@TiledMap@@QAEJPAVaui_Surface@@PAUta
gRECT@@_N@Z + 0xac]
  0x0066b32b  [?background_draw_handler@@YA?AW4AUI_ERRCODE@@PAX@Z + 0xbb]
  0x00432c12  [? dh_centerMap@@YAXPAVDQAction@@PAVSequence@@W4DHEXE
CUTE@@@Z + 0x52]
  0x0042b530  [?HandleNextAction@Director@@QAEXXZ + 0xe0]
  0x0042c727  [?ProcessActiveUnits@Director@@QAEKXZ + 0x47]
  0x0042b3cb  [?Process@Director@@QAEXXZ + 0x2b]
  0x0040c882  [?Process@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0x112]
  0x00407608  [?CivWinMain@@YGHPAUHINSTANCE__@@0PADH@Z + 0x3a8]
  0x004070c5  [WinMain@16 + 0x65]
  0x00792eec  [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x134]
  0x77e7eb69  [__onexitbegin + 0x7738aa91]

	03-05-2004 03:36									#453
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann The other things with the added globals and the player.government aren't addressed, Fromafar suggested to comment them out until we have a solution.

Has the line been commented out in the current playtest build?

	04-05-2004 00:32									#454
	2004.04.18 Inflate your Upload Space

1) Bug remains that my spy does not die when caught (sometimes not 100% of the time)

2) I am not shure this a bug but the number of caravans necessary to start trade routes seems much higher than before: ie at the beguining of the game I could need up to 32 caravans! Seems a bit large. Now with tanks and railroads all over, I am in the 5 to 8 number caravans/trade route. (both these numbers are for goods inside my own territory).

3) A point of clarification: build 2004.02.21 and 2004.04.18 both have non standard saves. Hence we cannot read them with the new build 2004.04.30. Correct??

Keep up the good work

	04-05-2004 03:52									#455
	Re: 2004.04.18 Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Frog_Gamer 2) I am not shure this a bug but the number of caravans necessary to start trade routes seems much higher than before: ie at the beguining of the game I could need up to 32 caravans! Seems a bit large. Now with tanks and railroads all over, I am in the 5 to 8 number caravans/trade route. (both these numbers are for goods inside my own territory).

This is something I have already complained about in my first playtest game. The number of caravans needed to open a trade road seems far too high.

quote: 3) A point of clarification: build 2004.02.21 and 2004.04.18 both have non standard saves. Hence we cannot read them with the new build 2004.04.30. Correct??

I don't know for sure, I can only say that I have not been allowed to load saves from the 2004-04-18 version with the 2004-04-30 playtest build.

	04-05-2004 04:24									#456
	Re: 2004.04.18 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Frog_Gamer 2) I am not shure this a bug but the number of caravans necessary to start trade routes seems much higher than before: ie at the beguining of the game I could need up to 32 caravans! Seems a bit large. Now with tanks and railroads all over, I am in the 5 to 8 number caravans/trade route. (both these numbers are for goods inside my own territory).

I guess that must be related to Martin's alterations to make caravans follow roads, etc. You can now make the trading require fewer caravans by building roads along the route in question, which should at least alleviate the problem, but it is rather strange that it has happened at all...

	04-05-2004 08:48									#457
	Re: Re: 2004.04.18 Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway I guess that must be related to Martin's alterations to make caravans follow roads, etc. You can now make the trading require fewer caravans by building roads along the route in question, which should at least alleviate the problem, but it is rather strange that it has happened at all...

IIRC...
The number of caravans needed is based on the distance and type of land crossed: in terrain.txt there are freight costs similar to movement costs for each tile. In calculating the number of caravans needed the function which was supposed to return the freight cost was returning 5 in all cases which is the movement cost of a trade route along a maglev. All Martin did was to make the function return the freight value for each tile type in terrain.txt

	04-05-2004 09:13									#458
	Re: 2004.04.18 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Frog_Gamer 3) A point of clarification: build 2004.02.21 and 2004.04.18 both have non standard saves. Hence we cannot read them with the new build 2004.04.30. Correct?? Keep up the good work

2004.04.03 Build can load unpached out-of-the-box, 1.11 patched, and all builds up to and including 04.03; 04.03 savegame can be loaded by 1.11 pach, 03.30 and 04.03 builds.
2004.04.12 Build can only load 04.12 savegame; 04.12 savegame can only be loaded by 04.12 Build.
2004.04.18 Build can only load 04.18 savegame; 04.18 savegame can only be loaded by 04.18 Build.
2004.04.30 Build can only load 04.30 savegame; 04.30 savegame can only be loaded by 04.30 Build.

Actually I think the 04.18 and 04.30 saves might be cross compatable if you do not use any SLIC


Fromafar's post

	04-05-2004 14:51									#459
	Re: Re: Re: 2004.04.18 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Flinx IIRC... The number of caravans needed is based on the distance and type of land crossed: in terrain.txt there are freight costs similar to movement costs for each tile. In calculating the number of caravans needed the function which was supposed to return the freight cost was returning 5 in all cases which is the movement cost of a trade route along a maglev. All Martin did was to make the function return the freight value for each tile type in terrain.txt

That would certainly explain it.

	05-05-2004 07:06									#460
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I know you guys are busy playing..I mean finding bugs. If you guys are willing, please test out my new terrain graphics/tiles too and let me know if you see any big terrain flaws.

thanks!

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...-Tilestest4.zip

	05-05-2004 13:21									#461
	Increase Your PM Length

You already have a few play tester E. I am going to test it tonight.

	09-05-2004 01:58									#462
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Has the line been commented out in the current playtest build?

No, it has not. The 04.18 and 04.30 file formats should be identical, as long as you do not have any database related Slic functions used. When you do, the files are incompatible.

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Actual it is a must, because noone want to lose his savegames, and those savegames provide us with valuable information about bugs. So tell me how do you want to reload the database support from an patch 1.1 file without reloading slic, the only way to do this is to know how Activision designed the database support, how many SOP_*s did they use, in which order, how they made they sure that at run time even after a reload the necessary information like the database and the member is available.

It looks like a hopeless situation then. If you do a /reloadslic, you will reset all variables - so the game state is destroyed, and it just isn't a continuation of the saved game any more. But if you don't do a /reloadslic, stored references (indices in arrays, probably) become incorrect, and anything may happen.

But, how bad is this? If you really want to finish it, the saved game can be continued with the original game. It would be nice if we could offer the possibility to continue an old save game with our modified version, but I don't consider this a must.

To find out about the new Activision Slic codes, we could generate save games with the 1.1 patch, and Slic-disassemble these with the debugger. Not a job to look forward to, though. Just a shame that we didn't get the patched code.

	09-05-2004 03:48									#463
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Found a new bug ( I think )

You can place tile imps on unexplored squares near your cities .

	09-05-2004 18:36									#464
	Mid-Game Report Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have currently reached the year 280AD (turn 208) of the game I am currently playing with the 2004-04-30 playtest build and the Updater2.

I have not spotted any major bug and the Updater2 is running fine with DebuSlic set to Yes.

I have not experienced any problem with Saves or Quicksaves so far.

I have just noticed a bug with the messages displayed in the message box, when you read a message it is grayed and sometimes you can not erase it with a right click. These messages disappear when you hit the New Turn button or when you /Reloadslic though.

Another nuisance is the number of caravans needed to open a trade road, the number needed is so high (around 25 to 34) that building caravans is pointless and the AI Civs have not open any trade road neither.

	09-05-2004 18:49									#465
	Re: Mid-Game Report Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I have just noticed a bug with the messages displayed in the message box, when you read a message it is grayed and sometimes you can not erase it with a right click. These messages disappear when you hit the New Turn button or when you /Reloadslic though.

IIRC, this bug existed in v1.11, and it has something to do with the scope of the variables used in the SLIC which generates the message, so it can be fixed by altering the SLIC (but it would be better if we fixed it in the source).

	09-05-2004 20:59									#466
	Re: Mid-Game Report Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Another nuisance is the number of caravans needed to open a trade road, the number needed is so high (around 25 to 34) that building caravans is pointless and the AI Civs have not open any trade road neither.

And why don't you build roads? However you can play around with the CARAVAN_COEF in const.txt, you should try what happens if you half it.

-Martin

	09-05-2004 22:14									#467
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Found a new bug ( I think ) You can place tile imps on unexplored squares near your cities .

I found you can place Fortresses on any square outside your borders (and not inside someone else's borders) that one of your units can see. I don't recall ever being able to place Fortresses outside my borders before.... But then again, I've never really had much use for Fortresses.

	10-05-2004 01:19									#468
	Re: Re: Mid-Game Report Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann And why don't you build roads? However you can play around with the CARAVAN_COEF in const.txt, you should try what happens if you half it.

In my game Suez and Memphis are 7 tiles away from each others an are indirectly linked by a 11 tiles long road passing through Thèbes. I am asked 30 caravans to create a trade road that would grant me 61 Gold per turn. Certainly worth the pain in the long run but there are more important things to build during the time needed to build such a high number of caravans.

I can mod the CARAVAN_COEFF (thanks for the tip ) but this is nonetheless something we should think about at this is not good IMO.

	10-05-2004 03:20									#469
	Increase Your PM Length

To be honest I never really got this you got to build caravan thing. I think you should pay to create a “trade road” now kill you production for five or six turns for little gold.

	10-05-2004 03:29									#470
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by drulius I found you can place Fortresses on any square outside your borders (and not inside someone else's borders) that one of your units can see. I don't recall ever being able to place Fortresses outside my borders before.... But then again, I've never really had much use for Fortresses.

That's the sense behind Fortresses to extend your empire without the need to build cities.

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I can mod the CARAVAN_COEFF (thanks for the tip ) but this is nonetheless something we should think about at this is not good IMO.

Well you could figure out what the best value for the CARAVAN_COEFF, or I can hardencode the change. However we should lower the costs to build a Caravan.

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin It looks like a hopeless situation then. If you do a /reloadslic, you will reset all variables - so the game state is destroyed, and it just isn't a continuation of the saved game any more. But if you don't do a /reloadslic, stored references (indices in arrays, probably) become incorrect, and anything may happen.

Most slic code I know can handle this, FrenzyAI starts from scratch to rebuild its state, maybe Diplomod with its Embassy code might be a problem, but the code itsself is a problem as well, it makes the game scrash when a civ is added to the game, and even if wouldn't make the game crash its embassy matrix would be totally screwed up. My GoodMod considers a /reloadslic and also Peter's CTC considers a /reloadslic. And if I look on the ConsiderProposal function in Diplomod then I must see that this has to be rewritten with Peter's changes.

For scenarios, if it is done at the beginning of the game then it should be ok, actual the slic should be reloaded with the start of a scenario anyway. It shouldn't be taken from the scenario file that may have some buggy slic that doesn't match with the slic you find in the scenario folder. However I am just talking about reloading slic onces or twice for a whole game and not everytime when the game is reloaded.

-Martin

	10-05-2004 03:45									#471
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Well you could figure out what the best value for the CARAVAN_COEFF, or I can hardencode the change. However we should lower the costs to build a Caravan.

As far as I remember the values in the SAP2 seemed right, I will check and compare them with the vanilla game (if they differ at all). Someone suggested the changes could come from the way the trade paths are now computed. If this is the case it will not be easy to adjust the values so that they produce the same result.

quote: Most slic code I know can handle this, FrenzyAI starts from scratch to rebuild its state, maybe Diplomod with its Embassy code...

BTW, it would be great if the Embassies were restored once you are no more at war with another civ... as in the SAP2.

... and the latest quote in your post is not from me, I can't write as well in English.

Another thing, the entries of the Great Library should be reworked, for example Galileo's Telescope's entry does not state clearly that it gives you 5 "free" Scientists in the city it is built in. And this is the case for almost all the advances and Wonders.

	10-05-2004 04:03									#472
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin As far as I remember the values in the SAP2 seemed right, I will check and compare them with the vanilla game (if they differ at all). Someone suggested the changes could come from the way the trade paths are now computed. If this is the case it will not be easy to adjust the values so that they produce the same result.

Well, assuming the poposed explanation was correct then the new system will give the same values as the old system if there are maglevs present. So, if you want to adjust it to give the same behaviour as the old system if there are roads present, rather than maglevs, you need to multiply CARAVAN_COEFF by 5/33.

	10-05-2004 12:12									#473
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Well, assuming the poposed explanation was correct then the new system will give the same values as the old system if there are maglevs present. So, if you want to adjust it to give the same behaviour as the old system if there are roads present, rather than maglevs, you need to multiply CARAVAN_COEFF by 5/33.

Thanks for the COEFF J Bytheway, it will spare me many tests.

I think I will wait for the next playtest build before playing with the CARAVAN_COEFF, if the new system sounds good I won't modify the coefficient. I suppose that one of the goals is to keep the human player from earning too much gold through trade.

In my current game the only trade road I have seen was between two cities that were linked by a 4 tiles long road.

	10-05-2004 14:34									#474
	Got spare money?

I have to crush the Greeks(or at least make it so they only have 1 city) then I may start trading.

	10-05-2004 22:29									#475
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Most slic code I know can handle this [...] For scenarios, if it is done at the beginning of the game then it should be ok, actual the slic should be reloaded with the start of a scenario anyway. It shouldn't be taken from the scenario file that may have some buggy slic that doesn't match with the slic you find in the scenario folder. However I am just talking about reloading slic onces or twice for a whole game and not everytime when the game is reloaded.

I agree with the beginning of the game. In that case, you will lose nothing.
From any other point, it will depend on the specific Slic code. If you have no real state variables (e.g. only random, recomputable, or periodic events), doing /reloadslic is relatively harmless. But when you have some variable storing cumulative battle wounds, or a flag storing some essential achievement, resetting it will cause the game to change completely.

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I think I will wait for the next playtest build before playing with the CARAVAN_COEFF [...] In my current game the only trade road I have seen was between two cities that were linked by a 4 tiles long road.

Don't bother building roads. In the current playtest build, you should connect cities with farms and mines to make the caravan cost go down .
However, don't count on this strategy to still work in the next release.

	11-05-2004 03:55									#476
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fromafar Don't bother building roads. In the current playtest build, you should connect cities with farms and mines to make the caravan cost go down .

You mean that to the prohibitive cost of the 25 or so caravans needed I would have to add the cost of a myriad of farms linking the two cities (farms that would be better used elsewhere, by the way)...

quote: However, don't count on this strategy to still work in the next release.

I feel reassured.

	11-05-2004 08:39									#477
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Another nuisance is the number of caravans needed to open a trade road, the number needed is so high (around 25 to 34) that building caravans is pointless and the AI Civs have not open any trade road neither.

In my games it appears the AI has kept up with me in terms of the number of trade routes, so the AI has not been put at a disadvantage by the change as far as I can tell. I did not like this ‘new’ trade system first either but I have changed my mind. There is too much gold in the game; now that trade routes are more difficult to get in the early game, this will reduce the amount of extra gold. As you build roads, then rail and finally maglevs the number of caravans per trade route decreases, increasing the amount of gold from trade in the late game. I want to play a few more games before I consider minor changes to CARAVAN_COEF or the build cost of caravans.

quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc To be honest I never really got this you got to build caravan thing. I think you should pay to create a “trade road” now kill you production for five or six turns for little gold.

I disagree....

	11-05-2004 19:05									#478
	Increase Your PM Length

Is it possible to add a gold cost to building caravans and tile improvements?

	11-05-2004 19:13									#479
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Anything is possible*. That would probably be relatively easy to do for tile imps, but tougher for caravans (as a rough initial guess).

*exceptions apply

	11-05-2004 20:13									#480
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just had to abandon my play test. I started with 3 AI I killed two before they got too many cities but the Greeks keep building more cities ( A lot of new cities) I ended up with 61 cities and the AI had at least 11 left So baring a perpetual period of anarchy I can’t conquer the world .

the AI on easy ( easy making it better to spot bugs as you not concentrating on the AI ).