12-12-2003 18:17									#31
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I can agree with giving them the site 4 of EQ. It may placate them (I doubt it), but more importantly we aren't significantly making our lives harder by them having it when they declare war. In fact, if they do use that as an invasion point, we may actually signicantly help ourselves as they lose rider after rider in those mountains.

	13-12-2003 01:07									#32
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This should go hand in hand with us building a Fortress on the mountain tile. I'm not sure about telling them they can't have a road to the East becuase that would cut off our trade routes to them (we do need one btw ET) possibly and they would possibly ask for the same; that we didn't build roads West of New BoP. I think a fortress would be enough; that and stack it with a good 8-10 Pikemen and accompanying Catapults.

	13-12-2003 01:21									#33
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Man, finally I see we are getting close to something resembling a compromise.

For the record, I had always assumed that if CFC had a chokepoint it would be on "their side", and Eq is on our site atm. I guess the FAM should have made this clear from the outset that whichever point we would give up, a CFC city could not be allowed on our half.

Should we allow CFC to build a city at 4 from Eq, without a road their cats could not bomb any defensive units on the mountains, that would give us a 1 turn warning of any CFC attack unless they charged with riders from the outset.

I hope we can all agree that such an arrangement does not compromise our security as it will make any CFC attack terribly costly. Heck, not even GoW ever dared to attack 3-defense units on mountains even when those mountains were in our way.

	13-12-2003 01:22									#34
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I'm not sure about telling them they can't have a road to the East becuase that would cut off our trade routes to them (we do need one btw ET)

We can ask them to build a harbor perhaps.

	13-12-2003 01:29									#35
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I have mixed feelings about the other plans, but a city 4 of Equilib without a road 6 of the site would be fine with me.

	13-12-2003 01:39									#36
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MZ: Don't mistake my post to mean I WANT to give it to them...this is only a "If they demand it" compromise for my part. I still want to ty avoiding giving them anything if at all possible. Feel it out, see where it goes, but don't be too conciliatory though.

	13-12-2003 01:46									#37
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hey, the trick chat I suggested in the last page is still my intention

	13-12-2003 03:01									#38
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What BF said

Only if it looks like everythng has gone sour, do we offer EQ4

	13-12-2003 03:23									#39
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so are we not going to have roads west of BoP? I would think that sort of thing would have to be bilateral, from their POV.

	13-12-2003 04:56									#40
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I don't think we should bring up the road issue.

1) Its not that important, the mountains continue further east. A road there might make us slightly more vulnerable, but not a whole lot.
2) It shows them that we are worried about an attack from them. I don't think that would be advantagous.
3) Not having a road there will only *encourage* attacking BoP instead. Sure we'll have a dozen or more units fortified on the choke point, but once they break through they have a good shot at taking out several cities really fast with riders.
4) Roads west of BoP might be useful to us at some point.
5) Trading with them. Harbors might work, but we have to ask them to do so. If they keep a road, its not even an issue.
6) If war does break out we can probally cut the mountain roads pretty fast if its too our advantage. Unless they deliberately leave a stack behind to guard it. the reason I think this is it'll be accessible via galley going through BoP. Its on a mountain, landing 4 pikes, we should be able to survive to cut it off.

	13-12-2003 16:50									#41
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Another compromise option.....

We tell them exactly why we dont want them to have a choke point.

Togas posted somewhere, that we will come off as greedy by demanding both choke points. If so, then lets tell them the truth.

A large portion of the members fear their Riders. By keeping both chokepoints, the members feel more secure, and it is unlikely a vote will be passed to give them either city.

What may pass is this.

As soon as Apolyton gets Metalurgy, we will gift them EQ (or EQ4).
This means Apolyton will have muskets and canons, and even the most distrustful member can see, that CFC riders will become a far less threat.

So..CFC can build their lake cities & build their navy.
But they will just have to wait until Metalurgy before they get EQ.

	13-12-2003 19:03									#42
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Assuming that we are giving them 4 of Equlibrium .......

another point to consider is : Do we allow CFC to built culture improvement in their chokepoint city ? If we do not expressly disallow culture improvement in the Agreement, CFC can clearly build them, and their culture border could expand into our territory.

	14-12-2003 01:34									#43
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If we give them Equil, we first need to built the fortresses and the new boarder cities. The boarder cities are schedualled to be built on the second phase of the current settlement plan.

I would like to get temples and walls in them, too.

Currently, I have no schedual as to the building of the forts.

MoI E_T

	14-12-2003 01:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Another compromise option..... We tell them exactly why we dont want them to have a choke point. Togas posted somewhere, that we will come off as greedy by demanding both choke points. If so, then lets tell them the truth. A large portion of the members fear their Riders. By keeping both chokepoints, the members feel more secure, and it is unlikely a vote will be passed to give them either city. What may pass is this. As soon as Apolyton gets Metalurgy, we will gift them EQ (or EQ4). This means Apolyton will have muskets and canons, and even the most distrustful member can see, that CFC riders will become a far less threat. So..CFC can build their lake cities & build their navy. But they will just have to wait until Metalurgy before they get EQ.

I second this, although I would hold out for Nationalism. With Rifles and Cav of our own, the day of the Rider is done.

	17-12-2003 20:57									#45
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Not much in this thread the past couple of days.

Just to reiterate my previous comments on goonie of CFC.

I was surfing over there trying to pick up any intel for the new C3C ISDG, and I noticed the last time goonie posted at CFC was 12 Nov 03. And it was in the OT Forums.

Like I said earlier, he is transient, and his election is an aberration. I really dont think we should read too much into it. Just MHO

	19-12-2003 00:57									#46
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Ok, it is time to reach a decision on the whole chokepoint issue as this war is all but over and CFC has been pestering us for an answer.

First of all, I wan't to poll this issue here, and after that hold a chat with CFC in order to apply "the plan" mentioned above (tell them that the poll is losing to see if they compromise with something else). I do however, want to get all possible poll options very clear so the poll thread doesn't become another discussion.

So far, from reading this thread I have seen the following proposals:

1) Give them Equilibrium (moved to 4)


Bad: Riders can pass although they have mountains and hill to go through.

Good: CFC is satisfied that we give them a fair deal. Quite likely that CFC will be less suspicous of us.


2) Don't give them either chokepoint

Bad: Diplomatically CFC will be extremely resentful at the fact we didn't even give in to their minimum petition. They will feel cornered and threatened and might react violently in the future.

Good: a chokepoint stunts any possible CFC attack.


3) Hold on to both chokepoints until Metallurgy, after which we give them Equilibrium (moved to 4)

Bad: For CFC it is basically a short-term "no" in which they have absolutely no guarantee we intend to keep our word. Might very be no better than not giving them anything.

Good: Gives us time for defense until we have good units. CFC might eventually appreciate that we do keep our word.


Now, my obviously biased point of view:

- Considering how damn BACKWARD CFC is, seriously, does anyone expect them to actually field a sizeable Rider force? I still don't understand the paranoia of some of you guys, it's like Germany being paranoid at Belgium in 1940...

- The paranoia excuse is NO excuse to CFC. Again, if Germany told Belgium that it was paranoid of them, the Belgians would laugh.

- While there is never a guarantee that CFC will be at peace or at war with us, giving them Eq will at least make the odds of them attacking us MUCH diminished and will work wonders to have a solid relationship until the time we actually DO decide to kill 'em off.

- Finally, we are currently in REXing-Like-Bunnies-on-Viagra™ phase. We NEED peace so as not to interrupt this whole expansion plan. If that peace can be achieved at the cost of ONE puny corrupt city, why on earth no?


Think about this please, think with reason and not with swollen pride.

So, any other options before we poll?

-MZ

	19-12-2003 01:04									#47
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They will attack whether we give them one, two or none of the chokepoints.

The chokepoints do not affect the balance of power on this continent, they only affect how war will be waged when it eventually breaks out.

If you were CFC, what would you do? Let's assume you still think you can win. I b!tch and whine until I got the chokepoints peacefully, all the while planning an "all or nothing" offensive against APO. I bet most of you would do the same.


Dominae

	19-12-2003 01:07									#48
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Sorry for my post above, I just realized it does not include "another option" (you've covered them all pretty well, Master Zen).

How about we offer them a cash settlement (ha!) for control of the two chokepoints. It's easier to bargain down Gold than a city...


Dominae

	19-12-2003 01:35									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae They will attack whether we give them one, two or none of the chokepoints.

I'd rather not affirm things until they actually happen. We've all been wrong from time to time

quote: If you were CFC, what would you do? Let's assume you still think you can win. I b!tch and whine until I got the chokepoints peacefully, all the while planning an "all or nothing" offensive against APO. I bet most of you would do the same. Dominae

If I were CFC i would have much more than 7 cities, would not have rushed and pissed GCA in a war I know I couldn't win, and sure as hell would not have Goonie as an ambassor to the most important team which he happens to hate. What makes you think, given CFC's erratic past, that they will take the most logical route?

To be honest, if I were CFC, i'd BUILD and actually take advantage of that nice piece of land they call home, then I'd seek outside assistance from one of the other countries before I committed suicide.

But that's just illogical me.

-MZ

	19-12-2003 02:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen To be honest, if I were CFC, i'd BUILD and actually take advantage of that nice piece of land they call home, then I'd seek outside assistance from one of the other countries before I committed suicide.

If that was your plan, would you risk going to war with APO over the chokepoints before your "build" phase was over (or even begun)?

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you would commit suicide against APO eventually, chokepoints or no, right?


Dominae

	19-12-2003 02:00									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I'd rather not affirm things until they actually happen. We've all been wrong from time to time If I were CFC i would have much more than 7 cities, would not have rushed and pissed GCA in a war I know I couldn't win, and sure as hell would not have Goonie as an ambassor to the most important team which he happens to hate. What makes you think, given CFC's erratic past, that they will take the most logical route? To be honest, if I were CFC, i'd BUILD and actually take advantage of that nice piece of land they call home, then I'd seek outside assistance from one of the other countries before I committed suicide. But that's just illogical me. -MZ

You affirm things yourself all the time. Are you not conjecturing (or partially affirming) what CFC's reaction will be to us in the above scenarios?

	19-12-2003 02:00									#52
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quote: If I were CFC i would have much more than 7 cities, would not have rushed and pissed GCA in a war I know I couldn't win, and sure as hell would not have Goonie as an ambassor to the most important team which he happens to hate. What makes you think, given CFC's erratic past, that they will take the most logical route?

Ah, but as you say, we can't count on CFC being logical. Even if the odds are against them, they may decide a strike on 'poly is the only way for them to go. Or, they could get assistance from on off-continent power. That said, I favor giving them Equ. It's the smallest risk for the biggest (diplomatic) gain.

	19-12-2003 02:21									#53
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I go with Zargon. Give them Equillibrium. The mountains are there for us. We get to keep BOP. As long as we don't do anything stupid, we still dictate what happens on this continent. However, we need them to be just as committed to the defense of the continent as we are. Worse than CFC attacking us is CGN or GWT bringing the battle to our homeland.

	19-12-2003 02:53									#54
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I also think we should give them Equilibrium.

So far, the only reason they've wanted a chokepoint is so that they can get ships out of the lake and out to sea. Offering them gold or techs or other things like that won't solve that problem, so I'm highly doubtful of CFC biting on that sort of deal.

	19-12-2003 02:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Now, my obviously biased point of view: - Considering how damn BACKWARD CFC is, seriously, does anyone expect them to actually field a sizeable Rider force? I still don't understand the paranoia of some of you guys, it's like Germany being paranoid at Belgium in 1940... - The paranoia excuse is NO excuse to CFC. Again, if Germany told Belgium that it was paranoid of them, the Belgians would laugh. Think about this please, think with reason and not with swollen pride. So, any other options before we poll? -MZ

It's all irrelevent if they could win or not....I doubt they could run over us....but this will not stop them trying.
And we shouldnt be making it easier for them.

This was all about compromise.

The "anti-CFC" faction here in poly have compromised that we could give them Eq4 after metalurgy.

We ask that CFC compromise and wait before they get a super corrupt city that does nothing for them.

MZ - you need to also compromise.

According to the FAM, we will look greedy and aggresive if we refuse to give them either.
According to the FAM, we will look paranoid and less trusting if we make them wait.

Thats cr@p.
They must be sh!t scared that we will roll over them after GCA.
So why cant we just say that we are the same, and are also scared of their riders. It's being fair and honest and they still get a choke point after their riders become less of a threat.



I'd also like to see the "When shall we attack CFC poll again". The previous one had a lot of unknowns...(we did not know how much army we would have left after GCA.)
Now, our army is remains largely intact. We could keep going and kill CFC off straight away.

	19-12-2003 03:04									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel It's all irrelevent if they could win or not....I doubt they could run over us....but this will not stop them trying. And we shouldnt be making it easier for them.

Even people who do think that CFC will attack us agree that the issue is not whether CFC can defeat us. What the real issue is us having time to expand across the 2/3 of unclaimed land on our side of the chokepoints so that we can compete with the other two superpowers on the other continent.

quote: I'd also like to see the "When shall we attack CFC poll again". The previous one had a lot of unknowns...(we did not know how much army we would have left after GCA.) Now, our army is remains largely intact. We could keep going and kill CFC off straight away.

Much of it is in the north and we would not be able to reinforce our current army while continuing our REX. This hurts us in the long run, which again, is why we need to find a way to delay CFC, even if they still attack us.

	19-12-2003 03:46									#57
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At this point in time, I would like to keep Equil until we have a new border established. This will be 20 to 40 turns, depending on other things.

If we want to now, I can change it's build to a settler and it will be ready to move the city in 15 turns.

OR, we can have CFC have a settler ready, so that they can rebuild the city at Equil 4 and we can use that settler for one of the border cities.

No matter what, I'm not going to cut any more jungle (or Improve any more tiles) for them to use, but start on the Fortress in 4 turns.

MoI E_T

	19-12-2003 04:19									#58
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To me the argument that CFC will attack us either way is the best reason to give them EQ.

Think about it: If they build a sizable enough rider force to truelly be a threat at all, they could probally overwhelm BoP anyways (part of our forces would be in EQ if not, then they'd just take it and this is a moot point to start with). At that point, they have nice flat land and riders to attack our new core.

If we give them EQ they might just be stupid enough to use that as a staging area for an attack. That is much better for us than trying to hold them off of BoP.

Course if they attack us and are smart....then giving them EQ will have no effect either way, they'll just overwhelm BoP to start with (and fail because they can't outproduce us).


So in the end, militarily giving them EQ will only have two net outcomes on a war with them:
1) No change at all.
2) They are baited into attacking us further from our new core and on bad terrain for riders.

Diplomatically there is no question that giving them something now is better than something later is better than nothing at all.

	19-12-2003 04:36									#59
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree You affirm things yourself all the time. Are you not conjecturing (or partially affirming) what CFC's reaction will be to us in the above scenarios?

One thing is trying to GUESS at what another's reaction will be. One thing is SAYING that something will happen. I've seen more than one person here, you included, which have GUARANTEED that CFC will attack us. If you actually read my posts carefully, I have never affirmed that CFC will attack us or not, merely that certain decisions will likely lessen the odds of that happening.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen - While there is never a guarantee that CFC will be at peace or at war with us, giving them Eq will at least make the odds of them attacking us MUCH diminished and will work wonders to have a solid relationship until the time we actually DO decide to kill 'em off.

see for yourself. There's big difference in saying something like "You WILL crash your car if you drive too fast" than saying "If you drive too fast you MIGHT crash".

	19-12-2003 04:52									#60
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How about disbanding Equilibrium, and just having units face off, with us on the two mountains and CFC on the rubble?