11-12-2003 11:05									#1
	Debate: What Next With CFC? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I had considered making this a poll, but I feel that it wouldn't adequatly address the options.


My policy, and the policy of my Ministry, is that Apolyton should embrace CFC as a close ally now and keep them close as the war ends. This would be done to try to minimize the chances that they will attack us with Riders. In theory, if we give them a very strong and beneficial deal, and if we present ourselves as worthy and useful allies, they will look to use their Riders elsewhere, or perhaps not use them at all.

This policy is backed by our interest in tieing them up with an alliance and other mutually beneficial deals. It also involves our very active friendship with their members and our generally open and friendly stance towards them.

This policy may also involve us giving up our interest in property, namely, one of the chokepoints, in order to demonstrate our full trust and willingness to partner with CFC.


Now is the time to discuss this policy. I know that I have not been very receptive to criticism of it in the past, but before any dramatic decisions are made by us, we need to know if we are in the majority or minority of the team on this issue.

We need to know if you agree or disagree.
We need to know what are the limits of our generosity.
We need to know if Apolyton, instead, just wants to flat out attack CFC after this war is over.

After sufficient debate, a poll will be made on this issue once the sides are ironed out.

Please begin discussions.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 11:09									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

To further clarify:

It is my belief that after this war Apolyton will be best served by undergoing a massive period of expansion and building. During that period our neighbor will gain the ability to build their UU. This makes it extremely dangerous for us to undergo such an expansion phase and we either need to forgo the expansion, do it cautiously, or find a way to expand while keeping CFC peaceful.

We believe that a close alliance would aid us in our domestic agenda.

Whether or not such an alliance is long term isn't that important to me. What's important to me is getting it, and making it important enough to CFC that they would not choose to betray it even if their Warmongers cried out for action. Thus, the alliance must be something that CFC values, not merely something that gets them by until they are strong enough to attack us.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 11:19									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ok, I'll discuss it...

CFC is not in a very good position of power now. CFC's recent political actions point to the fact that they would like to have more and are willing to 'play hardball' with Apolyton to get it. I believe it is a small gamble on their part to try to make a claim for some legitimacy as far as World Powers go.

Why would a Civ, who's power is declining (in respect to Apolyton's rise) wait till their backs are all the way on the floor before they do something proactive about it?

Wouldn't a UU that provided your moderatley weak team a chance to at least pull even with you closest neighbor be a God send? (read neighbor as rival, because we all want to win this)

CFC will attack us, no mater what reasonable concessions we give them. They know that Rider's, backed by a GA, will be their best and only chance to possibly win this game. Otherwise, they are stuck in the role as Apolyton's vassal.

I say offer them the treaty, almost exactly as you have it written; biut do not offer them any cities or land that we have not already told them they could have.

It's not that I worry about CFC being able to defeat us...I worry about at what cost to us will it be to defeat them later if we don't plan to prevnt their actiuons now or later. CGN/GWT have their own things going on right now. But, they will both continue to get stronger, maybe at a rate even greater than our own when they are at war with each other and we are at peace! We need to prevent CFC from draging us down.

Do I want to go as far as having CGN gift us Chiv, and not CFC, then use that to preemptively strike at CFC? Possibly, while that idea does have some merit I would like to see what CFC response to us is when we tell the they can't have either BoP or EQ before I would go further into the premptive (Pre-Rider's) strike on CFC.

	11-12-2003 11:39									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It should be pretty obvious that me and Togas have been staunch advocates of permitting CFC one of the chokepoints (preferrably Eq), without trying to rehash what he just said.

When trying to gauge what other people and other teams think, what I do is step into their shoes for a second, try and think like they do.

First of all, understand CFC, they're a crappy little team which after GCA is done for will be in last place. They have a neighbor which will soon control about 2/3 of the continent and will see how in a matter of 30 turns will plop 18 settlers in that land. They saw their neighbor crush GCA, whereas they were on the brink of defeat in their war. Furthermore, they see their neighbor getting all the spoils of that war and realizing that they won practically nothing more than what they claimed for at first when the war began. Now, whether or not you or anybody else agrees with this is irrelevant, it's what they most likely feel we have sensed during the chats we've had with them.

Now, what does CFC want? Well, first they wanted a chunk of the old GCA lands, it's pretty obvious they will now have to settle for nothing in this regards. Now, they want a chokepoint to have access to the inland sea and to at least control one of the two likely invasion routes.

Now think about it, are we a bit paranoid about CFC: YES and this has been expressed by more than one person. If WE are paranoid of this crappy little nation besides us just because they will get their UU soon, imagine how the hell they feel about this monstrous nation right besides them with one of the two largest armies in the game? You think they are not at all at the least paranoid of us? Of course!

When people get paranoid and when people get cornered, they lash out, they do the unthinkable, they do the illogical, or so it seems to the outside world. Taking us out might seem like suicide, but what would we do if we were treated like crap by a neighboring superpower and saw in our UU our only chance of eventually doing damage to them?

War with CFC will lead to utter defeat by them. However, a war, even one which we can win, can VERY MUCH disturb our short and medium term growth plans. We are planning a very complicated REXing effort involving the construction of 18 new cities in 30 turns. This can only be accomplished by avoiding any possible interruptions and this involves trying to get CFC not to attack up. So, how to avoid this?

By being exemplary neighbors. NOTHING we do can stop CFC from being jealous of us, of having a bit of paranoia about us. But there is a BIG difference between that and having an openly resentful neighbor plotting to do as much damage to us as possible. Our objective is to project ourselves as less a threat to them as possible, to appear flexible, cooperative, and most importantly to treat them as an equal partner despite obvious gap in power between us.

Remember the PTWDG? Things happened there because of resentment among teams for grudges that occured IN THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME. And this coming from teams which are MUCH more stable than the bunch of kids at CFC. Imagine a team, as passionate and emotional as CFC, being treated like dirt by Apolyton now, there is absolutely no reason to think that they will not try and harm us eventually, even if that harm is nothing compared to what we can do to them.

What we have learned in the PTWDG is to treat teams like you would like to be treated: fairly. The consequence of not doing that is the keeping of grudges which seem to never fade away. We do NOT want a resentful CFC besides us, we want a CFC which can trust us, which sees us as a trade partner, a fair and flexible nation, despite the fact we overpower them tremendously.

Finally, I would just like to say that there is no guarantee of anything happening. CFC might not attack us even if we keep the 2 chokepoints, CFC might attack us even if we give them Eq. Our objective, as diplomats, is to reduce the probability of that happening. Keeping both chokepoints says one thing and one thing only to CFC: that we are greedy landgrabers who show total contempt for their concerns. If we are incapable of showing concern for them,we cannot expect them to reciprocate.

I hope this team is wise enough too see what is at stake here, and see that security during our REXing phase is of extreme importance, and that by keeping both chokepoints we are not helping establish this security. I hope we can see that not being in control of one of the chokepoints is not as strategically vital as some people in this forum have made us believe, that securing our expansion in this very vulnerable time is a priority which must be taken care of, and that giving up a city like Eq is a small price to pay for that.

A few weeks ago I promised E_T and Dominae that they would have peace while they REXed. Sadly, If we foolishly decide to keep those two chokepoints, that promise is worth absolutely nothing.

-MZ

	11-12-2003 12:20									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Finally, I would just like to say that there is no guarantee of anything happening. CFC might not attack us even if we keep the 2 chokepoints, CFC might attack us even if we give them Eq. Our objective, as diplomats, is to reduce the probability of that happening. Keeping both chokepoints says one thing and one thing only to CFC: that we are greedy landgrabers who show total contempt for their concerns. If we are incapable of showing concern for them,we cannot expect them to reciprocate. -MZ

Mark my words....

No matter what we give them, they will attack. (unless we give them everything )

Do you really expect CFC to be happy with being a second rate power on this Continent with us? PUUULEASE!!! If there's anything that CFC will show us is how to get as much as you can out of an oppenet before you rush him with your GA fueled UU!

	11-12-2003 12:55									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think I read somewhere that the people that make up CFC are a bunch of kids. Kids is a very vague term. Are they infact high school kids or what? This will effect the outcome of this vote.

	11-12-2003 13:25									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Mark my words.... No matter what we give them, they will attack. (unless we give them everything )

Ok, I'll mark them right next to your previous words that said we'd never suffer a rep hit from breaking the NAP with GCA.

	11-12-2003 15:43									#8
	Remove this text

I think this is a wise strategy Togas, but exactly how do we treat them as an equal partner beyond (say) giving them control of one of the chokepoints? Do you intend to increase tech sharing or trading or perhaps give them gifts?

	11-12-2003 15:50									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The best war to avoid war to not give anyone a reason to attack you. So never piss anyone off and do your best to ensure your neighbour has enough land.

I don't know the situation too well but I think the reduced likelyhood of them declaring war from us giving them the city is worth more than the tactical advantage we have by keeping it.

	11-12-2003 17:21									#10
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No concessions that compromise our ability to defeat them.

Before the elections I would of said otherwise, but it is now clear to me that a significant portion of their active voting members see us with a bullseye. I don't think this will change by giving them what they want, in fact, I think it'll only make them bolder with future demands.

Afterall Goonie has already demanded not only the choke point but at least a city or two in the GCA mainland once. He may have since backed down from that (I dont know), but it shows clearly what his mindset is. He doesn't want equality, and anything we give them now is likely become the front lines of a future war. They just aren't going to be happy with 50% of the land on this continent, and if we did give them more, they'd just see us as a weak target anyways.

In short, I think war with them is inevitible and we shouldn't be working to make it harder on ourselves based on a misguided notion that we can prevent it by being nice.

	11-12-2003 17:48									#11
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BF & wervdon are spot on 100% correct.

We happily talk to these guys about trades & NAP's, knowing all too well, that we will probably have to take them out with Cav at the latest.

Do not be fooled that they are not doing the same thing.

Lets bow to Apolyton now. Be friends. Try to negotiate as much land from them as possible without pissing them off.
Knowing full well, that their only chance of survival is to use that small window of opportunity where our Riders reign supreme, and take a large chunk outa Apolytons ass.

If you were playing CFC, how would you win the game ?
Play second fiddle to Apolyton for the rest of the game ?
Never catch up ?

Their only chance is with Riders.



Oh...and Togas ...
I think we should Poll.
We only have 10 or so active posters.
Love them or hate them... the Lurkers should also be allowed their say, by a vote.

	11-12-2003 19:21									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

CFC is going to get Knights very soon. Let's put ourselves in their shoes and think like CFC :

1. Current Alliance. Would CFC care about NAP with Poly ? Would they think about their military alliance wih Poly in beating off GCA ?
Ans. Nope, everybody walks to win the Game. NAPs does not count for much.

2. Chokepoint. Will CFC attack Poly if we don't give them a chokepoint and the 2 cities requested by Goonie ?
Ans. Chokepoint is a factor. Should CFC want to go to War with Poly, they will DEFINITELY use the chokepoint as the triggerpoint why they attack us. I don't think they really want the 2 cities, the 2 cities are no benefit to them, they know fairly well that we can capture the 2 cities easily as it's far from the core. They are just using them as leverage for bargaining.

3. Under what conditions will CFC attack Poly ?
Ans. CFC will attack when they perceive they have an advantage over Poly. These advantage can come when :
i. their military strength becomes stronger or comparable to Poly.
ii. Poly continue to lose units against GCA
iii. Poly forces are off the continent going after GCA or involved in War against GWT/CGN
iv. CFC are in alliance with GWT/CGN, and the combined forces are capable of defeating Poly
v. CFC has run out of land to expand
vii. CFC felt threatend by Poly

4. Under what conditions will CFC not attack Poly ?
Ans. i. Poly military strength continue to remain strong vs CFC
ii. Poly is able to outproduce CFC in military units during War time iii. CFC odds of defeating Poly with Riders and under GA are low. The odds are better by continue playing the game and go for "Space Race" victory
iv. Going to War with Poly will kill off the chances of CFC (and Poly) winning the game, ie benefitting CGN/GWT.

Back to ourselves, what we should do :
a) I agree, maybe with the minority (i am not sure) that we should seriously consider giving CFC Equilibrium. Not giving them will definitely trigger a War, and at a time we are reserving for Rexing.
b) We have to be on our toes. While Rexing, we cannot be complacent and let our military strength falls below CFC
c) We need to maintain our Industry strength. We must be able to outproduce CFC in military units during War time.
d) We need to consolidate our relationship with CGN. CGN must stand on our side, if we get into any dispute with CFC later on. We cannot afford a CFC & CGN alliance vs Poly. This will be critical after the teams get Astronomy/Navigation.
e) We have to be more active in our diplomacy with CFC. One of the points that we can discuss with them is - how best to allow CFC to trigger their GA by letting their Riders have a go at GCA remaining forces ? (this may sound suicidal, but it really shows CFC our commitment, and that we are not worried about CFC getting Riders, and is keen on CFC building up their Production capability blah blah)
f) We need to get our GA sorted out asap, but that is really a separate discussion by itself

Just my 2 cents worth.

	11-12-2003 20:00									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

I have been swayed a few times reading this thread, but I feel that the argument for preparing for war against CFC is the more convincing one.

I suggest that we tone down the REX-ing, especially in old GCA lands. Do not let them get the chokepoint, as it is the only spot they are guaranteed to hit. ONLY once CFC is past the chokepoint do their Riders reign surpreme. They can only use the 3-movers to their advantage when they can be unpredictable with their targets. Do NOT let CFC get the advantage in the coming war!! Keep the chokepoint for all its worth, even if it means going to war with CFC now.

	11-12-2003 20:33									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'd say play nice with them to the extent that it's possible, but let's not cough up strategic advantages, such as chokepoints. I'd prefer to have them as an ally, but I think it's about even odds that they will hit us - even if we treat them as equals and give them a chokepoint.

-Arrian

	11-12-2003 20:49									#15
	Tired of ads?

Which chokepoint Panzer, New BOP or EQ? Or both?

REXing like bunnies is the way to win this game, war has gone on long enough.

I would support giving them EQ as a comprimise if we have to do it to gain trust or good will.

But not new BOP, way to close to the new capitol, and it will be way too much of a prime city due to the proximity to the new capitol.

Even if this buys us 30 turns by then the REX will be complete. And by that time it would be suicide for CFC to attack.

I think a lot of us are reading too much into the goonie election. If I was CFC and my plan was to attack us as soon as we could build riders and I was on the verge of getting riders, then why would I elect goonie RIGHT before I wanted to do this attack? Thats just playing there hand, I would rather continue lulling apoly into a false sense of security right up to the point of attack, surprise and speed is the only hope I have to win a war.

goonie is a big mouth. He disappeared from CFC for a while, then came back, made a lot of noise that impressed the kids and got elected. And correct me if Im wrong here Togas or MZ but he has now DISAPPEARRED AGAIN!

So I don't know, Im just a scum bag lurker but Im not reading to much into this goonie thing. He is an abberration not a constant.

Thats my take, get us security, let E-T REX like he!!, maintain our defensive forces so they are supperior to CFC, give em EQ if it buys us some good will, and move forward.

	11-12-2003 21:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 goonie is a big mouth. He disappeared from CFC for a while, then came back, made a lot of noise that impressed the kids and got elected. And correct me if Im wrong here Togas or MZ but he has now DISAPPEARRED AGAIN! So I don't know, Im just a scum bag lurker but Im not reading to much into this goonie thing. He is an abberration not a constant.

and you are correct. I guess he'll come back in 1-2 months and then start whining on why we didn't give them both chokepoints.

	11-12-2003 21:56									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

btw, regardless of their awsome UU, I do not see how it is even conceivable that CFC can outbuild us in the Rider-Knight arms race.

	11-12-2003 23:37									#18
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Back when the issue of offering a chokepoint as a concession to CFC was raised I argued for it then. If we continue to promote a war-time economy by proactively attacking CFC before they get riders then we will fall even farther behind the other continent!! WE WILL STILL BE A THIRD RATE POWER! But if we continue with E_T's plan for REXing and economy we have the chance to become the premier power. We need more cities, more productive cities, more economy, etc. to compete with CGN and GWT's current size and economy. For that we need time.

BigFree brought up the fact that they will attack us no matter what we give them. He is right! But the issue isn't that they will attack us, it's when will they attack us? Right now we need time to build our economy and production power. If we have to give up Equilibrium as a concession for that time then it is far and away worth it. Equilibrium is surrounded by mountains and jungles effectively limiting any bonus CFC would get by attacking us with riders from that area. We keep BoP no matter what and defend it heavily...I advocate defending both areas heavily anyway with a mobile force in our core and GCA's old core to attack any landings made. But no matter what we need that time that an alliance with CFC right now can give us. They will attack us at some point, or we will attack them at some point, it makes no difference. But if we have time to put our peacetime economy in motion, then down the road when an attack does occur we will have no doubt as to the winner...US!

	11-12-2003 23:45									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So, Rhothaerill, you think CFC will attack us later if we give them EQ? And that they will attack us sooner if we don't give them EQ?

	11-12-2003 23:58									#20
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I do not think that they will necessarily attack us sooner if we play hardball and keep everything. But if giving them Equilibrium as a concession to an alliance is what it takes to give us time to build, then that is what we should do. Time is the more important factor here. Yes, we could probably take out CFC right now, but we would have to build a great many more units right nowto successfully do that. And then we fall further behind the other continent in production and economy. If we use that time instead to grow and build our economy (and begin building a strike force of knights) then we will be eminently more prepared not just for CFC but for the other continent as well. The other parts of an alliance, tech trading etc, are just gravy on top of that.

Giving up Equilibrium is not as great a loss as some people make it out to be. Yes it's a city at a chokepoint, but it's not a productive city and on our side of that point are mountains and hills that are more defensible than the city itself. IF they decided to use that city as a forward base the best part of the rider, it's movement, is lost to them.

	12-12-2003 00:15									#21
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I was about to make a big post along the same lines as what Rhoth said, so now I don't have to. Well, at least, not as big as it was going to be.

Our true competition isn't across the two 1-tile land bridges. It's across that big body of water. When it comes down to it in the end, it will be US (Apolyton) vs. CGN and/or GWT on th eother continent. CFC can neither win a war against us nor the game at this point. Their economic development is too backwards and they simply don't have the talent we have on this team.

Our military and especially our economy are very over-extended right now. Just look at the map. Look how much territory we have control over and then look at how many cities we have covering that land. Compare that with the two teams on the other continent. Notice a problem?

At this point all CFC can do is play for fun and play to be the spoiler. They can't win. The problem with being next to a team that can't win and may be a spoiler is that... they're next to you.

We have the potential to become stronger than the other continent. But we need to take advantage of that now before they get too strong. To put things bluntly, we cannot afford another war right now. We squeezed every drop of strength out of our current lands for the previous war and we don't have enough left to give to engage in another major war. CFC is further away with better technology and WILL stand and fight.

We will soon have Chivalry and Knights. We will soon have peace. Let us take advantage of those both. And try to stay at peace. It doesn't matter how, we just need to in order to win this game.

	12-12-2003 01:53									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think Rhoth and Trip put it better than anyone.

All we need are these 30 turns of peace. If CFC attacks us after those 30 turns, big friggin' deal. It is this 30 turn period where we must do anything to ensure us that our REXing will not be interrupted, if this involves a concesion like Eq, so be it. After we REX, let 'em come.

	12-12-2003 01:56									#23
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Even if this buys us 30 turns by then the REX will be complete. And by that time it would be suicide for CFC to attack.

*cough, cough*

	12-12-2003 02:19									#24
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quote: We have the potential to become stronger than the other continent. But we need to take advantage of that now before they get too strong. To put things bluntly, we cannot afford another war right now. We squeezed every drop of strength out of our current lands for the previous war and we don't have enough left to give to engage in another major war. CFC is further away with better technology and WILL stand and fight.

I'd say we can't squeeze anymore out of our precious economy and still have a chance of standing up to the big ones across the sea, but its mostly the same- we're here to win this, and frankly, our only chance to achieve this goal, save some miracle war between CGN and GWT in which both completely cripple one another, is to carry our REXing, palace rellocation and harnass a period of peace towards catching up.

I also don't believe, like many others, that we're facing an opportunity to gain a long lasting partner, CFC will probably take a chance on an attack, with or without the help of a foreign power. Our task is to make sure that we get as much time as possible to establish our economy and defenses before this happens- a holistic partnership agreement is a step in the right direction. Eq in CFC's hands, and a set border will also encourage CFC to REX as well- especially after they see how fast we settle, and how developed our country is (if you're right and they are a bunch of kids, envy might get the better of them).

All the while, we will have to divert resource towards fortifying around Eq, boost the garrisson in the BoP area as well as having a couple of galleys in the inner lake- this will be the price to pay for what we both realize will be a tense partnership (if one is ever to exist), but I believe its better than keeping Eq to ourselves, giving CFC a harsh diplo treatment, or just outright atatcking once we feel like we're ready.

So, count me up for the good guys

(j/k )

	12-12-2003 04:00									#25
	Tired of ads?

I still disagree. If CFC gets an advantage (even just a perceived one) they will attack us. We currently are in a position where we can make the decisions on when (somewhat) and how.

If we give them a choke point, then we know that is going to be the point of invasion when it comes. When it comes is likely to be after they get chilvary and have had enough time to build at least a half dozen riders (or upgrade...anyone have any idea on their horse count?)

If we don't give them a choke point then they will likely be eager to move against us sooner. The question is how crazy are they? Would they attack us sooner than getting the same units produced? Would they blindly rush them against the chokepoints even if we had 4-6 mercs fortified in each? I sure as hell wouldn't, but then they haven't always made the wisest choices....

My point is, if we have the choke points then 20 mercs (10 per choke point) is enough to buy us a large amount of peace of mind while we rex. If we notice CFC growing in power next to us, we just add more to the choke points or get a clue and go wipe the floor with them.

	12-12-2003 05:41									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, I was going to lay out my argument, but I see that Rhothaerill and Trip have already laid out much the same argument ahead of me.

I happen to agree with those like H_E that CFC is both very suspicious of us and that they may one day attack us, but I think that a war right now would be INCREDIBLY unwise on our part. As for when a CFC attack comes, if it ever does, I believe that the very first city to fall in the attack will likely be one of hte chokepoints if they don't already control one. So I'm warming to the opinion that letting them start with one would be but a very minor tactical loss. I'd vastly prefer Equilibrium because it's further away, more corrupt, and less likely to become useful beyond having the silks near it.

Our main reserve armies defending against a CFC attack will probably need to be stationed near Karina and the new capital to have optimal movement to the front lines in the event of an attack rather than all stockpiled at the two chokepoints where they'd take forever to move to the OTHER one if CFC only attacked one of the two (splitting our forces in half). By placing our main reserve armies near our dual capital cities, which are central to the two halves of our empire and closer to the over half of the empire than the chokepoints, we maximize our ability to respond to invasion threats throughout our territory more easily. I'm willing to sacrifice a border city or two to CFC's initial attack in order that the full bulk of our military is able to meet their advance at the 2nd or 3rd city rather than having only half our army up against their whole army fighting for the 1st city.

We can go ahead and stockpile plenty of DEFENSIVE troops (NMs and later muskets) in those cities at and near the chokepoints to make any CFC assault on them costly, but our offensive forces should remain in reserve well behind the chokepoints.

The tactics will change significantly once railroads come into play, but that's a long ways away and well after the usefulness of CFC's riders... not to mention a point by which, if we're right about our superior building talents, we will be FAR too strong for CFC to really bother attacking without outside assistance... it's outside assistance I'm far more worried about.

	12-12-2003 11:23									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Are we allowed to merge our two teams, or is that a no-no according to the UN constitution (or whatever it's called)?

I'm thinking we could try and convince CFC there's more glory in it for them if APO and CFC band together to defeat those lucky sods on the other continent (lucky because of their starting locations). One might argue that they would rather make us pay (for what?) before they make their exit, but I'm sure there is some appeal to them in a chance to take part in the victory.


Dominae

	12-12-2003 11:37									#28
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Joining teams would be viewed as poor form, I think.

On the topic of the choke points, I brought this up a long time ago...

If they are severely aggitated about it, offer to give them the site 4 of Equilibrium... once we hit the industrial era.

If we have to give them Equi at any time, we do not give them that city itself, we give them the site 4 of it. That leaves them out of the mountains and our best point of breaking a cfc invasion in the North.

	12-12-2003 12:07									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree with nye on that point IF we HAVE to give them something, then give them that tile to build on.

	12-12-2003 16:24									#30
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Agree.

And, they cannot build any roads east of their city.
The hill and Mountains would slow their riders down to 1tile/turn.

But only if we have to give them something