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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
If that was your plan, would you risk going to war with APO over the chokepoints before your "build" phase was over (or even begun)?
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you would commit suicide against APO eventually, chokepoints or no, right?
Dominae |
Nope, I would not go to war until my side of the land is nice, settled and productive. Frankly, I also would probably not go to war period unless I preceived APO to be suddenly changing its policies towards us (ex: not renewing a NAP), I would also seek very good relations with at least one team on the other continent just in case.
Understand that CFC has NO reason to really hate us, we have not lied to them, cheated them of anything, backstabbed them, broken a treaty, etc. Why would you risk suicide attacking a team that has been NICE to you when perhaps you could be more useful against a team that has been a pain? (i.e. GWT)
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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Nope, I would not go to war until my side of the land is nice, settled and productive. |
We all agree, that they could not win, until they develop their own land. But has CFC shown itself to be a smart team, and make the wise decisions ?
quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Frankly, I also would probably not go to war period unless I preceived APO to be suddenly changing its policies towards us (ex: not renewing a NAP), I would also seek very good relations with at least one team on the other continent just in case. |
Also...if you had already decided to go to war with APO (because a public poll demanded it) you would go out of your way to be nice & friendly and put APO's mind at ease, and still try to get a choke point invasion point.
quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Understand that CFC has NO reason to really hate us, we have not lied to them, cheated them of anything, backstabbed them, broken a treaty, etc. Why would you risk suicide attacking a team that has been NICE to you when perhaps you could be more useful against a team that has been a pain? (i.e. GWT) |
Every team surely remains in this game because there is a chance of winning the game. If CFC thought they could not win, they would not care about territory or borders or choke points. CFC think they can win, and they want a choke point.
It is not beyond reasonable doubt that they may see their only opportunity to win, is for a Rider Rush, where they get a lot of land, cities, & great leaders.
We may see it as suicide, but they may see it as their only chance to win.
If they truely want to be friendly, then they should have no problems in waiting until after metalurgy for Eq4.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
We all agree, that they could not win, until they develop their own land. But has CFC shown itself to be a smart team, and make the wise decisions ?
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Some folks have been arguing that the wise decision is to attack us because its the only (long)shot at winning this game, so CFC be unwise but that all depends on what your definition of "wise" is (and from the looks of it, it differs greatly).
quote:
Every team surely remains in this game because there is a chance of winning the game. If CFC thought they could not win, they would not care about territory or borders or choke points. CFC think they can win, and they want a choke point.
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Do you think GCA is still in the game because they think they have a shot of winning? 
quote:
It is not beyond reasonable doubt that they may see their only opportunity to win, is for a Rider Rush, where they get a lot of land, cities, & great leaders.
We may see it as suicide, but they may see it as their only chance to win.
If they truely want to be friendly, then they should have no problems in waiting until after metalurgy for Eq4. |
Let me ask you a question, to you and to all the other people who have been arguing against giving them a chokepoint. Given such a hard stance by you guys against ever giving in to CFC (and this goes back to other previous negotioations with them), what would your attitude be if YOU WERE CFC and Apolyton was unwilling to give in to even your slightest and not-unreasonable requests? You'd be pissed off, you'd HATE Apolyton for acting like the greedy bully who wants everything. You'd finally shed all traces of logic and decide that these scum deserve to die, and if there's no way to do it, then at least damage them so that they don't win.
If so then, why on earth do you expect CFC to take it nicely, and still relish our friendship and strengthen our relationship even after we take their petitions and shove them up their arses?
-MZ
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Nope, I would not go to war until my side of the land is nice, settled and productive. Frankly, I also would probably not go to war period unless I preceived APO to be suddenly changing its policies towards us (ex: not renewing a NAP)... |
Then I guess you're not a big fan of that "winning the game" thing everybody keeps talking about...
If CFC is in fact resigned not to win the game (as you allude to), and they're not mad at us, why are they being such hard-as$es with us now?
All the signs are saying the CFC still thinks they're in this game, either out of pride, or out of a foolish optimism. Their best chance is not against the superpowers on the other continent, it's against us.
Make no mistake (gosh, I sound like Bush Jr.), CFC could be a very annoying adversary once they decide to come after us. They could afford to focus solely on military units, while we need to look toward city improvements if we want to compete against the other continent. We would have to match CFC's single-minded offensive military potential, all the while scratching to keep up with the two giants in the East (even when preparing for war, their economies will be superior to ours for quite some time).
The two chokepoint cities, if we keep them, would be worth far more to us than any trust we hope to earn with CFC by gifiting one of them. It's time to be hard-noses and tell them no deal, offering some Gold, techs, or anything else in compensation.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
If so then, why on earth do you expect CFC to take it nicely, and still relish our friendship and strengthen our relationship even after we take their petitions and shove them up their arses?
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I'm not expecting anything of the sort. The bottom line is: I would rather have both chokepoints and be at war, than lose one of the chokepoints and be at peace. Why? Because CFC is not going to make for a great trading partner as they build up Riders and prepare to attack us.
By the way, there's a good chance they simply will not attack us (at least not right away) if we do not give them the chokepoints, especially if we keep channels open by offering them something in compensation. They surely will not become our best friends, but at least they will not attack immediately (them attacking later is a given).
Dominae
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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Let me ask you a question, to you and to all the other people who have been arguing against giving them a chokepoint. Given such a hard stance by you guys against ever giving in to CFC (and this goes back to other previous negotioations with them), what would your attitude be if YOU WERE CFC and Apolyton was unwilling to give in to even your slightest and not-unreasonable requests? You'd be pissed off, you'd HATE Apolyton for acting like the greedy bully who wants everything. You'd finally shed all traces of logic and decide that these scum deserve to die, and if there's no way to do it, then at least damage them so that they don't win.
If so then, why on earth do you expect CFC to take it nicely, and still relish our friendship and strengthen our relationship even after we take their petitions and shove them up their arses?
-MZ |
For me and others who believe CFC are going to attack anyway, we dont care what they think of us.
Just because OctX and their leadership are friendly and easy to deal with, doesnt mean they have a dozen evil plans in the wings ready for one sign of Poly weakness.
Compromise MZ 
I would agree to let them have Eq4 after Metalurgy.
After the age of Riders.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:32
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Giving the city after metallurgy is quite a creative idea for this problem, and it might have worked with someone else, but I fear this proposal would only foster distrust, and hurt our interests in the long run. I tend to see things this way: the longer we delay CFC's attack (which IMO will come eventually) the better our chances of catching up with those overseas. We cannot allow ourselves to warmonger right now- as Dominae subtly suggested (forgive me if I'm wrong) in saying he'd rather have war soon with both chokepoints than a peace without EQ. I also thinnk we CAN forfeit that chokepoint, in the hope of fostering trust. If war is ever to break out, both us and CFC would be fools to attack from EQ, especially CFC which will rely on their 3-movers. Let us come from the mountains and through the jungles, I'm sure their charge will go down as a "noble" one in the books of history, if you know what I mean...
Our goal is to make them want to REX and develop like we do- perhaps our alliance treaty could help guarantee they are not focusing on the military in some way or another (nothing straightforward, of course).
Unfortunately, I do not share Master Zen and Togas' optimism regarding the far future with CFC, but I do fear for our competetiveness should we disregard the peaceful alternative, for the time being.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:32
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Time to explain this again from scratch. I see this situation is turning very similar to the old GWT debates and people are bringing the same arguments all over again.
First of all:
The future is ALWAYS uncertain. Togas and I have never affirmed that there is a guaranteed way to keep CFC at peace forever. So all arguments that this or that WILL happen are pretty silly IMO.
Ok, next step.
There are two generic possibilities with CFC: 1) that they will be good neighbors or 2) they will try and attack us when they see the opportunity because we are a percieved threat. Personally I think that CFC's attitude will, over time, be shifting from 1) to 2) because there will be no other opportunity to win the game, the only reason why they wouldn't attack us is if they eventually feel they cannot win this game. They may very well have this feeling already just by looking at the map. After all, why on earth is GCA still in the game, to win? Of course not.
Anyway, the deciding factor is time. Our objective is to delay CFC's attitude from reaching 2) until the time we are finished REXing, in other words, give or take 30 turns.. After 30 turns we don't really care if CFC decides to commit suicide and attack us since switching production to military builds will not hurt us or disturb our plans so much. Thus, this whole debate isn't whether CFC will attack us or not (something some of you keep insisting on) since I doubt ANYONE here thinks that in the long run, neither CFC or Poly will attack the other.
One of the things CFC had been asking for in the past is an Alliance, why have they been insisting so much on that? BECAUSE THEY ARE PARANOID OF US. They fear an attack by us much more than we fear an attack from them. In the issue of territory they have asked us for a chokepoint, it is not an unreasonable request since they want access to/from the lake. Now, we have three options on what to say to them:
A) "F*ck off, we aren't giving you anything"
B) "We'll give you Eq4 but later"
C) "You can have Eq4"
as you can see, each answer we give them will likely steer them towards 2) in a greater or lesser degree, with A being the one which will likely get you more paranoid and mad, and C being the one with less negative impact. Compare this to the time you people as kids asked your parents for a toy, when they said no you'd make a tantrum and do stupid things, when they said later you'd be fairly disappointed.
Now, considering our objective that is peace at all costs for the next 30 turns, don't you people think that option C is the one less likely to bring CFC over the brink of war during our REXing phase? And who knows, it might very well have more favorable consequences in the long run. And this is my second big issue:
We cannot afford to throw in the trash our relationship with CFC over silly pride and arrogance when they can be USEFUL to us in the future. How useful only time will tell, but should we forgoe at least trying? WHo knows, CFC might end up be the most detestable neighbor and we'll end up killing them, very likely, but they can also be a valuable ally. We should not throw away opportunities like that over silly things. Good diplomacy is taking chances and giving chance to possible favorable options. If they fail, so be it, nothing in diplomacy is ever 100% certain, but I do not want to find myself 50 turns later think of what could have been if we had only tried to strengthen ties in a relationship where we really had nothing to lose.
There will be a poll today or tomorrow on this. I ask everyone to vote wisely wheighing in all points of view, and thinking of what is best for our diplomacy and our nation in the long run. We have the chance to possibly obtain very favorable results depending on the option that we choose, or we have the chance to forget about good diplomacy and be no better than those other teams we've loved to hate.
-MZ
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:32
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It will likely take more than 30 turns to fully REX, but shouldn't be too much more than than, I think. I have to do several things before I can fully tie down as to when the final settler will be built for the last city. It will likely be around the time of when we move the palace.
Anyways, I'm working on it as much as possible.
As it is, I am already setting things us to abandon Equil, so, if CFC whats it, they will have to do it the old fashion way... I suggest that we have Units at the old Equil site, forted, until CFC gets that City built, I don;t want the "Accidentally" build it on the Wrong spot....
MoI E_T
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wervdon
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EQ is worthless to us in attacking them (we'd go through BoP or by galleys across the inland sea first).
Giving them EQ4 actually hurts them if they use it as the staging point for a war against us assuming we have units fortified in the mountains. Waiting until cannons will have negligible effect, if they attack us sooner than that, they'd probally go at us head on at BoP anyways (its closer, and its more likely the land they'd want).
Giving them EQ4 helps us diplomatically.
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Dominae
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You need people that agree with you in the FAM? How honest of you...
Seriously now: I'm not really sure why you think we'll be prepared for CFC when we're finished REXing. If they build military units while we build Settlers, Marketplaces and whatnot, we will not be ready. Like I've posted above, if ever we build anything purely for economic purposes (Marketplaces, Libraries, etc.), which we must do if we want to compete with the East, CFC will gain on us in military. Therefore we will not be more ready then than we are now.
The best thing we can do for ourselves is keep those chokepoints. Then we can juggle both military and economy. We need both.
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 20-12-2003 at 08:56
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19-12-2003 04:53
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