16-12-2003 00:58									#61
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Some points we might like RP to consider :

1. We could have our own FP in Eliopolis in about 40 turns.
2. Lego will win unless something is done about them. A Gow/ND attack on Lego might be required.
3. Holding Pamp is good for now (might be SP there), and good if it weakens GoW and we are to join ND against GoW, but also a long defence of Pamplona might make Lego unnassailable
4. It's fine for them to talk about 'paying the blood price for Spain' but we've already paid that to keep them alive. The only reason they have the strength to hurt GoW/ND now is that we gave it to them and paid the price for it. Pamplona's strength could be used to cut a deal, rather than breaking enemy units.

Points we need to consider.

1. Given point (3) - RP might push for a GS-RP-ND alliance against GoW and Lego. This has its merits, but if Lego is at war I'd prefer them to be alone. Also, we're not ready for more war yet. I fear that we'll get arm-twisted by RP into persuing their interests over our own.

2. At some point RP might might want to teleport some more pikes into Pamp from their/our Stormian cities.

3. While they have Stormian cities, they can be complacent about Pamplona "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" as they say in Britain when they know there's somewhere to run.

	16-12-2003 01:50									#62
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If we end up siding with ND against GoW (and Lego), remind me to start calling the the "Lapdogs of War."



Time to make a Big Push with ND, I'd say.

	16-12-2003 02:26									#63
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hows this draft to ND for starters :

quote: Thanks for the reply, Darekill. We're not quite sure where RP stand with us at the moment - and that will affect our decisions and any possible offer to yourselves.. We hope to have RP's position clarified very soon. GS is aware that in the light of recent unit losses by the warring parties on Borconia, the continued defence of Spain - in particular a lengthy conclusion to the final status of Pamplona could possibly hand Lego the game. All teams are faced with interesting decisions at this point. GS is comitted to withdrawing from Bob and intends to make peace soon with ND and GoW. At this point one option is for ND, GS and GoW to recognise common cause against Lego. To assist this, GS could offer assurance that we would not land on Bob while ND/GoW attack Lego, and would seek to resolve the Pamplona question without further unit loss. Another possible combination is Lego-GoW vs ND. If this happens it is possible that both GS and RP could be persuaded to support ND against GoW. Although the future is uncertain, positive relations between ND and GS look possible, and we are interested in the possibilities of being a tech partner with ND. We are behind you now, but in the medium term our research potential is good.

	16-12-2003 03:03									#64
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Good.

	16-12-2003 03:12									#65
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It's tempting to add to add to the first para ... "as indeed we all hope to have RP's turn played soon".

48 hours late, and I thought we were a bit tardy at times - is this a record?

	16-12-2003 03:16									#66
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probably close to a record.

at least when we and other teams have been late, we've been kind enough to post messages semi-explaining the delay. At least a note of "important decisiions" would be helpful.

And Bigfree has been posting to the ISDG forum, and Togas has been spotted online, so no excuses there.

Togas has admitted to using these things as stall tactics, so....

	16-12-2003 03:25									#67
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The bad manners shown by RP towards the whole game chime resonantly with the attitude they've shown to us. They really know how to make themselves popular.

I sent the message to Darekill.

	16-12-2003 05:20									#68
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Arnelos responded to my PM thusly:

quote: For the record, you're not the only one pissed at BF, and I don't care if you post that to your forum (though would ask that you not forward it directly to him... I tell him what I think about this to his face in our own forum). Fact of the matter is that BigFree is off on one of his own personal tangents. He is fully committed that RP Team should simply hole up in Pamplona and go out fighting. That we should ignore our relationship with just about everyone in the game and just die already and force ND/GoW to at least lose some units finishing us off. To be blunt, his opinion is not shared by anyone else still active on RP Team. Togas as been rather non-commital in general on these issues. I think he's just trying to get a feel for what the team as a whole thinks and then responding to that. Aidun, E_T, and myself are really the only other people still active on RP Team (E_T to a very limited extent). Aidun and I have been conducting the diplomacy for the team of late and the two of us are in agreement on the following: * We see the primary role of RP Team at this point as staying in the game to aid GS. If our team is unable to provide GS any meaningful form of aid, we see little reason for us to remain in the game and to just go out fighting. However, if GS still has some use (or potential future use) for our team remaining alive, then we remain alive in order to aid GS. E_T seems rather non-commital as well on the survival issue, but remains quite committed to the GS alliance, as does Togas. To be honest, RP Team policy right about now is set by whomever cares to be active enough to set it. Since Aidun and I have been very active of late conducting diplomacy, we've been effectively setting team policy, though with strong dissent from BigFree. BigFree was named by Togas to play the turn in Togas' absence, but he has not done so (which is why the turn remains unplayed...). Aidun and I agree that the next step that is REALLY needed is a frank joint discussion between the members of RP in favor of survival to help GS and any members of GS who wish to participate on the future and how GS and RP can operate in the future. I'm going to be out of town starting at the end of this week, so a time before then would be best for me, but I'm sure Aidun and Togas can do just fine without me. I'm currently in chat and although I need to run more errands today, should at least be in the channel (though perhaps away) all day.

I may chat with him a bit tonight. I think his message is clear, and should clear up how RP is approaching the game...

-Arrian

	16-12-2003 05:33									#69
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OK, I'll calm down about them now. Cheers for getting that out of Arnelos, Arrian

	16-12-2003 05:49									#70
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We needed to hear that from them. I suspected this all along (knowing BF's tendency to walk around with his foot firmly crammed in his mouth from the ISDG).

If I find Arnelos in chat tonight, my basic message will be this:

1) thank you, we appreciated your note
2) GS *does* have need/use of RP
3) GS probably would rather make a deal than have RP go down fighting
4) Let's try to set up a chat of team leaders.

-Arrian

	16-12-2003 07:21									#71
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Who's on now? I am available for this very important communication.

I think Togas, especially, could use some bucking up. As you all know, I don't think this is over by a long shot, and that includes for RP (new metaphor: I've referred to Tibet over the last several months, but in retrospect that was dumb dumb dumb... obviously, they can be Vatican City(ies) ).

	16-12-2003 10:48									#72
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I suspect you are correct Theseus. It is not over, if all teams play to their best interest. That is not a given. Ever play hearts? Players will often not take a few hearts to prevent a run or will just keep dumping hearts on the high score, even when they are not the low score? As you say dumb dumb dumb, but people often can not over come the knee jerk reactions.

	16-12-2003 18:57									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 3) GS probably would rather make a deal than have RP go down fighting -Arrian

This is where RP aren't on our wavelength at the moment.

	16-12-2003 20:13									#74
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I don't think that's so, given Arnelos' PM.

Note the following:

quote: We see the primary role of RP Team at this point as staying in the game to aid GS. If our team is unable to provide GS any meaningful form of aid, we see little reason for us to remain in the game and to just go out fighting. However, if GS still has some use (or potential future use) for our team remaining alive, then we remain alive in order to aid GS.

What is needed, then, is for GS to decide how RP can best help us, and ask them to do it.

-Arrian

	16-12-2003 20:42									#75
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How about we ask them if we can trade Barca and NM for tech with ND?

ND have already been informed that we're interested in a tech partnership with them.

	17-12-2003 06:10									#76
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Well, there's a thing. BigFree has just blown wide the story of the buggy Spanish cities.

There goes the value of those as trade items.

	17-12-2003 06:11									#77
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edit - doublepost

	17-12-2003 06:12									#78
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Though on reflection, Barcelona has value in its silks