12-12-2003 21:08									#1
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Got a pm from Aidun, was wanting to know if we could make a chat around 23:00 GMT tonight. I'm not sure I could make that, I have some things I need to desperately take care of today...
Arnelos says to try to catch him online sometime before sunday....
Thoughts? I've replied to both people. Can someone make a chat with aidun? Or would it be easier to just catch arnelos some random time?


This from Arnelos:

My apologies. I haven't been good about checking my Apolyton PM box lately. I am still somewhat involved in RP Team, but admittedly we really haven't been working too much on it lately.

Togas is out of town visiting his mother until Sunday evening and has left BigFree in charge of unit and economic orders, but I am in charge of Foreign Policy.

I can meet members of GS in chat just about any time I am online, which should be intermitantly throughout tomorrow and the weekend (though I have errands to be running in preparation for my trip home to Virginia).

If you don't catch me between now and Sunday, Togas will be back and you can talk to him.

- Arnelos

	12-12-2003 21:39									#2
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Thanks goodness for that. I was starting to draft ultimatums in my head.

I'll probably be around to chat at 2300 GMT - if my gf doesn't want to go out tonight.

Perhaps we can thrash out a quick agenda ...

	12-12-2003 21:46									#3
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2300gMT is what US eastern time...1800? Not a good time for me at least, dinner, wife just gettting home etc.

yes lets come up with an agenda.

1. How does RP view itself wrt its future on bob, stormia and as a team?

2. what happens to pamplona? do they want to evacuate those troops (I don't know if that's even possible now, due to palace relocation issues, perhaps GoW would allow them to move them out via their sole galley)

3. Research goals, what they are researching, 40 turns or what?

4. do they get all the n. stormia cities? make sure the landing sites are blocked.

etc.

	13-12-2003 00:35									#4
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These points are along the lines I was thinking too - I had started making notes then got called away - I'll post them soon.

	13-12-2003 01:31									#5
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel 2300gMT is what US eastern time...1800? Not a good time for me at least, dinner, wife just gettting home etc. yes lets come up with an agenda. 1. How does RP view itself wrt its future on bob, stormia and as a team? 2. what happens to pamplona? do they want to evacuate those troops (I don't know if that's even possible now, due to palace relocation issues, perhaps GoW would allow them to move them out via their sole galley) 3. Research goals, what they are researching, 40 turns or what? 4. do they get all the n. stormia cities? make sure the landing sites are blocked. etc.

On these points -

1. we could add - "and how do RP feel about being a semi-autonomous GS vassal?"

2. On Pamplona, the longer it lasts the more GoW (mainly) and ND get hurt. The sooner it falls the quicker N.Stormia can be productive. Also, only when both GS and RP are off Bob will the next chapter begin - the break up of the alliance between GoW, ND and Lego.

3. Research - Yes, what are the specifics now - and would they agree to be committed to a shared research project at our direction?

4. The idea would be for them to have all five cities in N.Stormia and ultimately to be responsible for maintaining the wall. This would obviously have security implications for us - and is a matter of some concern to many in our team. (From our pov, them maintaining the wall will free up our own troops, and save us money.)

If RP accept the territory but don't meet the obligations required of them by GS, then we would be making a mistake of granting territory that we could eventually get productive ourselves. So if they want to do it we need them to do it properly or we've lost out. Even poor communications at a time of crucial tech decisions could be adverse, so if RP lose interest and don't play their part it could end in tears.

If they want in - they've the conquistador and their GA to come, and no-one knows what the future holds. If they don't want to play ball on our terms, we think it would be better for them to leave the game.

	13-12-2003 02:32									#6
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I'd like to try and stay away from using "vassal." No need to stomp on their pride.

Arnelos and I are on the same MZOC3C team (American Imperialists), and I can probably chat with him some tonight. I won't be home for several hours, though.

-Arrian

	13-12-2003 02:37									#7
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Can you chat with Aidun, CH? I can't make it. pm him if you can.

edit: because I won't be able to...

	13-12-2003 02:55									#8
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Arrian, that'd be great if you can chat with Arnelos.

Yes, vassal isn't a flattering word, but we need to somehow leave them in no doubt what's expected - to play ball on our terms - or it's not worth it for us long term.

Aggie seems to say that we have given Pamplona another 15 turns. That's gonna seriously inconvenience the Bobians and gives RP the chance to strike a deal, getting something out of GoW.

	13-12-2003 02:57									#9
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aatw,

yes, I'll try Aidun

	13-12-2003 04:11									#10
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How about 'Semi-autonomous province'?

	13-12-2003 05:24									#11
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#MilOps, password: Right.

	13-12-2003 06:01									#12
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good chat

The reason I thought the pamplona discussion was better here, was because BigFree is monitoring the chat room, don't want to hold anything back, you know

	13-12-2003 06:49									#13
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Well, good then if he saw that - he needs to think about it. I edited up the train of thought and put it in the current GoW thread.

	14-12-2003 00:26									#14
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An apology: sorry, I never did talk to Arnelos last night. I pretty much went straight to bed after I got home (and I had some gf "issues" to deal with. Don't worry, it's all good now).

-Arrian

	14-12-2003 11:00									#15
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We need another chat with RP, soon. The following could very well change the course of everything up to this point.

quote: (23:54:33) (Arnelos) Octavian_X - RP Team needs to discuss with GS a diplomatic proposal sent to us by ND (23:54:43) (Octavian_X) ok. (23:54:50) (Arnelos) please post that in your forum (23:55:00) (Octavian_X) I'll do so. (23:55:17) (Arnelos) ND wants a seperate peace with GS/RP (23:55:26) (Arnelos) they seem worried about a GoW backstab (23:55:29) (Arnelos) this is perfect (23:55:59) (Octavian_X) really? that's fascinating... (23:56:03) (Arnelos) I've been arguing in the RP internal forum for weeks about how we needed to talk to ND about the future... it seems that ND has finallly contacted us (23:56:17) (Arnelos) so I've jumped on the chance... (23:57:02) (Arnelos) ND wants us to do them the favor of helping them take Pamplona, but to also help them stop GoW for getting any more territory in Southern Bob and to work against GoW... I've told ND tentatively that RP Team is interested, but that we (23:57:07) (Arnelos) 'll want something in return (23:57:13) (Arnelos) we need to negotiate that (23:57:48) (Arnelos) in addition... my idea I've floated inside RP Team is that it might be possible to get ND to agree *in writing* to some form of binding agreement with Gathering Storm concerning the future if RP Team helps them with this now (23:57:56) (Arnelos) it's an idea... (23:58:05) (Arnelos) but needs much discussion by RP and GS (23:58:08) (Octavian_X) That's great news! (23:58:15) (Arnelos) and then we need to negotiate it with ND (23:58:15) (Octavian_X) I'll relay this information immeadiately. (23:58:19) (Arnelos) good

	14-12-2003 19:27									#16
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As Arnelos says this is perfect, well kind of. It's very big anyway.

I was going to say this anyway, but I'm very much against peace with GoW without serious concesions.

My first reaction is get peace with ND and screw GoW.

But we need to analyse this fully and look at all the possiblities. The position is very critical now and what we do may very well affect the outcome of the game.

	14-12-2003 21:54									#17
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Why is this perfect? If GoW have agreed to work for Lego to let them win it's disastrous. My reading of the game is that unless Lego are taken down a peg or two soon they could be too far ahead. I'd like someone to argue against that. The best argument I can come up with is that with only native one luxury, Lego face city size limits - but then they can just build more cities instead. I doubt GS will get many metros - we are already using most of our land. If GoW is working for them, they'll be OK for luxuries - so what's to stop them.

	14-12-2003 22:01									#18
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This is bad, very bad. Our forces have been decimated, our people are tired of war. We can't stand between GoW/Lego and ND.

This certainly makes the offers from GoW and lego make a lot more sense. They really have no reason to give us anything, unless they are trying to appease us.

Frankly I wouldn't be suprised if this was how it was supposed to go down 15 turns ago, had we not intervened. In fact, didn't our messages to ND warn them of this?

	14-12-2003 22:06									#19
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re: bigfree

what a jackass, I've thought that before. It would be nice for them to actually try to communicate their thoughts with us rather than sit back and criticize after the fact.

	14-12-2003 22:14									#20
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We need to look at this rather unpleasant message from BigFree. It's on the log - but I'll quote it here too :

quote: I'm sorry. First for not responding sooner, but I was fuming over GS'es decision not to go after GoW with Lego's threats notwithstanding. And for GS'es decison to withdraw those Knights that got masacared! Secondly because I think the idea stinks because it smells of shame and fear. I do not like it. I want to do everything we can to make the war as costly for GoW and ND as possible. Here's why: GoW is out to help Lego win, period. GoW will try to win it themselves; they know that they can't and have resigned themselves to help Lego as much as RP did towards GS. The only real chance we have is to try and sway ND towards our side. Otherwise, I want to hole up in Pamplona and make them have to bleed for it. Either that or abandon it and take our units and head North with them to do as mush pillaging as we can against GoW.

So BigFree is saying that he refused to speak to us because :

1) We decined to go to war with Lego.
2) We 'withdrew those knights that got massacred'. What is he on about? I don't understand?

He also flames the idea I obviously rather foolishly floated (I'm fast coming to the conclusion that my ideas are not worth the wasted effort in floating). OK, he is entitled not to like an idea, but to rant and rave against us like this - what kind of an ally is this c***?

	14-12-2003 22:44									#21
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RP is fast becoming a liabilty to us

What do they want? Does Bigfree speak for his team?

He has been a loose canon jackass everywhere I've seen him at apolyton, ptwdg, isdg etc.


Where the **** does RP stand on things. Do they want to go out in a blaze on Spain? Well, then give us back our cities so you can go to it.

Is this why they're holding up the save?


Sigh.

	14-12-2003 22:44									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Why is this perfect? If GoW have agreed to work for Lego to let them win it's disastrous.

Disastrous yes but the strong bonds between GoW and lego have been aparent for some time. This is good. ND spliting from the 3 way coalition is good. ND and GoW/lego fighting each other would be very good for us. I think we do have the capabilities to stand between GoW/lego running over ND, even if only by the threat of us mounting an invasion against GoW as soon as they move their troops against ND.

This also means that GoW and ND will be less willing to loose units taking the remaining cities on bob.

GoW need peace with us so they can continue other millitary endevours. As long as they have the threat from us they can do nothing.

	14-12-2003 22:59									#23
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My opinion:

1) If BigFree speaks for RP, our reaction should be immediately to cancel the alliance, next turn declare war and take their cities in N Stormia. Screw them. They deserve to die.

2) ND fearing a GoW+Lego alliance? Excellent. Renew our proposal to side with them against GoW for a little or even no land on Bob, as I proposed earlier. This eliminates GoW, screws Lego () and forces them to forge an worldwide alliance against ND. Since Vox is weak and RP basically dead, this would bring us again in the game.

	14-12-2003 23:14									#24
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With us gone, the 3-way coalition was always likely to split - and this was always a possibillity - particularly given vondracks ability to arrange things in his favour. With us gone, ND was his next problem, so he hires GoW.

If RP want to calmly say to us that in their reading of the situation we should be looking at a deal with ND, that's a fair position. What we can't accept is that attitude from BigFree.

BigFree's attitude contrasts completely with Aidun's and perhaps Arnelos. We don't really know what their team position is. Annoying as BF's rant was, there's no point in us over-reacting. If we decide we have to cast them off then it's best to do it with a cool head.

Once they've passed the turn we can move - perhaps express our concerns to the other RP'ers we've been talking to - and say we can't work with BF. Aidun says they didn't want to carry on if they were a millstone. Well, BF is acting far worse than a millstone. Could he have been drunk? I gather H_E has a few alcohol issues that might explain his posting. Does anybody know BF outside this game and get on with him?

On the other issue - without knowing how things will line up, we don't know what we want to do with those cities - raze, sell, return to RP - or even whether to accept peace from GoW if they offer it.

	14-12-2003 23:17									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph My opinion: 1) If BigFree speaks for RP, our reaction should be immediately to cancel the alliance, next turn declare war and take their cities in N Stormia. Screw them. They deserve to die. 2) ND fearing a GoW+Lego alliance? Excellent. Renew our proposal to side with them against GoW for a little or even no land on Bob, as I proposed earlier. This eliminates GoW, screws Lego () and forces them to forge an worldwide alliance against ND. Since Vox is weak and RP basically dead, this would bring us again in the game.

This looks good, SR

	14-12-2003 23:49									#26
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I thought it might be interesting to run the Spanish cities-for tech idea by Darekill.

Also, word from Aggie here

	14-12-2003 23:53									#27
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re: aggie

I would just tell him straight up that we have no idea what RP wants to do, we have no idea who is in charge over there. That we are trying to do right by them, but they aren't giving us much help about things.

	15-12-2003 00:24									#28
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How about also telling Aggie that there's a feeling in a number of teams that GoW and Lego are going to ally against ND, and that GoW, knowing they have no chance themselves, are now trying to help Lego win the game.

There are debates raging within GoW, and within their alliance. Aggie says that he agrees with the analysis that all sides should now oppose Lego. His team do not think like him (if they did, we'd be allies now) and would possibly be happy to spend the rest of the game trying to eliminate GS, rather than opposing Lego.

	15-12-2003 00:29									#29
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good idea.

I'm glad this loser mentality hasn't invaded GS. I can't imagine wanting someone to lose more than I want to win,but I guess that's just how some people think. GoW is in position to win this game, but if they eliminate ND, then they are handing a cultural win over to Lego.

	15-12-2003 01:02									#30
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So far, we only have RPs word about ND's concern for a GoW-Lego alliance.

I'd rather hear it from ND. Darekill is online, but hasn't read the mesage yet.