15-12-2003 02:02									#31
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It's usually best to ignore most of what BF says, as long as there are other people active for RP he doesn't have too much control. Arnelos typically keeps him under raps. We could perhaps mention to RP that his attitude pisses us off a bit so as to take away from his credibility in RP.
Arnelos is the one we should deal with. I understand he's been trying to make some deal with ND for a while now, I think we should allow him some space and see what he can do.

ND getting all spanish cities could be very good.
What would be good in return would be some tech but more importantly some agreements on tech trading, perhaps a deal to get us both into the IA. Also some lux trading, they'll be getting 2 more lux from the cities iirc. So perhaps we could get 2 lux for 2 of ours.

I don't think we should ram the threat of GoW/lego down ND's throat perhaps just wait and see what they think about things.

	15-12-2003 02:23									#32
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You're right, OPD, that we should try and wait and see if possible, but we don't have very much time if we want to trade tech for the spanish cities. We may have only next turn to decide what to do with those cities - burn then or trade them.

To say that BF 'pisses us off a bit' is a little understated, I think.
This guy is behaves more like an enemy than an ally. I thought he called the shots at RP. They deliberately ignored (he admits it) about eight PMs from us and denying us essential information - and then flames us for our conduct in the war as a punishment for not going to war with Lego . This is the whole team blanking us out, remember.

They haven't even said 'oh thanks' for Invention.

	15-12-2003 02:32									#33
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We should send BF a nice terse message: Do you speak for your team?

I dont' think he does, but if so, then we need to make plans without them...

	15-12-2003 02:53									#34
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I say go on, sleepy

If he says Yes it gives us every reason to persue SR's suggestion re: N.Stormia.

The only problem is that RP would stay at war with us until Pamp fell - which could still be a while.

Also, if we backed ND against GoW and Lego - even with ND owning all of Bob would they be able to exploit it in time to challenge a Lego victory by default. Do we have any idea how far Lego are ahead?

	15-12-2003 03:30									#35
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Holy cr*p... I miss a couple of days, and I'm not even sure what's going on!!

	15-12-2003 03:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I say go on, sleepy If he says Yes it gives us every reason to persue SR's suggestion re: N.Stormia. The only problem is that RP would stay at war with us until Pamp fell - which could still be a while. Also, if we backed ND against GoW and Lego - even with ND owning all of Bob would they be able to exploit it in time to challenge a Lego victory by default. Do we have any idea how far Lego are ahead?

I concur (and BF is really a d*ckhead).

Backing ND... this should include our original demands, and more, e.g., the destruction of GoW, a significant chunk of Bob, dismantlement of Lego, etc.

	15-12-2003 03:56									#37
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I am also struggling to keep up wiht the diplomacy aspects. I would say that with out a piece of Bob at some point, we can not win. Well maybe if we got abig piece of Leg, but that could come to late.

So we need a few cities now or be able to ally in the ND vs GoW battle with an eye to getting land on Bob.

The best chance is to get in after GoW with ND fairly soon. Otherwise if all went against Lego, that could work. We just have to have more than Stormia in the near futrue.

	15-12-2003 04:18									#38
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I don't know if any kind of ultimatum to BF is that good an idea. Just ignore him and let the rest of RP know that were not going to put up with sh*t from him.

RP belong to us and should be able to do us alot of good in northern stormia even if it's just as a nuisance to other nations. They have a GA to come and can make alot better use of the land up there than we ever can.

	15-12-2003 05:16									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I am also struggling to keep up wiht the diplomacy aspects. I would say that with out a piece of Bob at some point, we can not win. Well maybe if we got abig piece of Leg, but that could come to late. So we need a few cities now or be able to ally in the ND vs GoW battle with an eye to getting land on Bob. The best chance is to get in after GoW with ND fairly soon. Otherwise if all went against Lego, that could work. We just have to have more than Stormia in the near futrue.

We've been fighting for a piece of Bob and it hasn't happened the way we'd hoped. We're going - for now, and it's inevitable that our exit would shake things up a bit. We intend being back at some point. As well as land on Bob, we also need to develop our economy if we are to have a chance of winning - and having reached a team consensus on this we should try and stick to it.

The immediate issues are : BigFree being a butt-munch, and what to do with the spanish cities on our turn. The simple move is to raze them and be done with it. However,

1. RP members hint they can get a deal with ND. Except that we don't know what RP really think. As OPD says, there are people on their team we can work with - and the case is strong for their potential as as ally - if they let us 'own them' but they don't. If we owned them, we wouldn't have to wait until Big Free himself decided to end our punishment and speak to us in the reprehensible manner that he did. I don't find that easy to ignore.

2. GoW offered us tech for the Spanish cities we control. We also floated the idea to ND.

If GoW offer peace and we accept, then they can't take the cities and we have time to negotiate over them. If they don't, we have to raise or make a deal next turn.

I tried to get RP to consider making a four-way deal, and that what prompted BF's charming message.

If we make a deal without RP for their cities, it'd best be ND - unless we decided to cut RP off.

If we raise them, we've lost an asset, but it removes the risk of trading them to the wrong side. If we suspect GoW of being close to Lego (Lego would have an incentive for this) then we definitely want to support ND - and that goes better with RP - if they remain an ally.

	15-12-2003 05:39									#40
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What I'm saying is that although we want to step back and let the others scrap it out for a while while we heal and wait for an attractive deal - there's a possibility that only an alliance against Lego would stop Lego winning the Game.

GoW might even see it that way - but I reckon everyone is jockeying for position with potential deals and second-guessing. Perhaps no-one knows how the chips will fall.

Would (ND + GS) vs (GoW + Lego) be enough to stop Lego?

Also - in the RP log Arnelos mentions that they have a proposal from ND - did he also say that we could see that?

The reason we have to think so urgently about which way things are heading (and I'd rather not - it's very complicated) is to decide how best to dispose of the Spanish cities.

	15-12-2003 05:47									#41
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quote: Originally posted by OPD RP belong to us...

All your RP are belong to us!

	15-12-2003 05:53									#42
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Got a better PM from RP - this time from Aidun

I might as well copy it here too :

quote: I see that you received BigFree's PM. He can hardly cope with the situation, though his reaction is more offensive than I expected. His reaction is but not the reaction of our team. There is still no consensus. I hope that we can get it soon and I think we will have it soon with Arnelos and I thinking along the same lines and I think he will soon share our point of view, I can but never be sure of it. Please keep what I said above confidential to my teammembers. Darekill sent us a PM in which he asks us kindly to leave Pamplona to them after having jumped the palace to N-stormia. We will not agree to this and demand that ND will retreat and leave the Spanish cities alone. On other terms I think we cannot make any deals, because that would mean that we give our current cities right away. If they want entire Spain, they have to pay for that with blood.

	15-12-2003 06:38									#43
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I'm so confused, and I've been here the whole time!

What can RP offer ND other than their cities?

Who is the voice of RP?

What the hell is going on anymore?

I fear that its almost time to cut bait wrt RP, we don't need this complication anymore.

	15-12-2003 07:33									#44
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Well it looks as if ND see things differently.
They see it as RP simply giving them the cities would be the best thing as it would prevent GoW getting them so helping us all against GoW/lego. Also they probably figure RP are going to north stormia anyway so giving up Pamp isn't too much of a big deal to them.

When the reality is that RP will want to hold up in Pamp as long as they can as it is unlikely that either GoW or ND will be willing to loose the large amount of forces it would cost to take the city.

A deal with ND for the other spanish origin cities on bob may be possible as they are likely to be razed anyway. Then perhaps also a deal for Pamp eventually.
We really need to see what Arnelos has to say about things and we need to get onto the same page as ND. RP aren't going to give anything to ND for peace if they're leaving anyway, ND should be giving RP/GS something for peace and the RP cities on bob.
ND may not see things this much in our favour but if the agreement we make with them is more of a 2 way thing they'll be more inclined to go for it. ie peace with us and RP and you get cities but we you have to lux trade with us and trade loads of tech in the future and give up saltpeter for a fair price etc....

The main problem is Pamp, no one is likely to attack it ATM, RP will be unwilling to give it up and ND may not be willing to make deals for the other (soon to be disbanded cities) while RP are still in Pamp.

Anyway the important thing is that we gets things straight with RP first and know where we stand.

	15-12-2003 07:45									#45
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I can see things going any of four different ways

1. RP trade away all cities to ND for a very sweet deal for all concerned. Preferable but unlikely.

2. RP agree to trade away all cities other than Pamp, ND agree a deal for these cities not inc Pamp, perhaps with peace at the end perhaps w/o peace. Less preferable but a little more likely. Although 2 sides would have to be persuaded to do this.

3. No deal is made and all cities other than Pamp are razed. Most likely now but least preferable.

4. We trade the cities we currently have on bob to ND independantly of RP. Something I'd very much be against but should still be considered.

4.b) We cut off RP completely....

4.c) Sell cities to GoW......


Even if we end up with no. 3 happening I don't think it'll close the door to trade with ND and certainly won't be the end of possibilities.

	15-12-2003 08:06									#46
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Actually there's another possibility aswell, we get RP to agree to us selling cities to ND for peace between GS and ND and further agreements, kinda like (4) but with RP approval. We could even get RP to gift us the other non-pamp city they have to trade to ND aswell.

These cities are likely to be razed anyway so we might aswell get some use out of them. Some members of RP should see it that way....
I don't think we should be too pushy with regard to these cities and RP they are afterall RP's cities to do with what they like.

	15-12-2003 08:44									#47
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6) If we consider them RP cities regardless of whether BF is spitting in our face then perhaps we should just give them back this turn, request our own cities be returned to us and be done with it. If they wish to then renogotiate their survival in Stormia they may. If they died next turn then too bad. At the moment we just give them stuff and they do nothing for us except piss us off and waste our time.

If, however, we feel entitled to simply say to RP "you are a one-city civ and you owe that city and your very lives to us - obey or die" then Barc, NM & Sirocco are ours to trade as we see fit.

I quite like the idea of giving them back to RP and getting our own cities back- unless we get an offer we can't refuse from ND.

	15-12-2003 08:49									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus 6) If we consider them RP cities regardless of whether BF is spitting in our face then perhaps we should just give them back this turn, request our own cities be returned to us and be done with it. If they wish to then renogotiate their survival in Stormia they may. If they died next turn then too bad. At the moment we just give them stuff and they do nothing for us except piss us off and waste our time.

I like that.

puts the onus on them to make a decision for a change. make them actually communicate with us.

	15-12-2003 10:16									#49
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As Amy would say (when parodying her Alabama origins):

I am so corn-fused.

	15-12-2003 15:22									#50
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I'm very much in favour of us getting N Stormia back from Roleplay, by whatever means necessary. offering a trade of our Spanish cities for RPs N Stormia cities, and seeing how they react might be the way to go. If they refuse, we can sell the Spanish cities and take back ours. It's pretty obvious they're breaking the terms of our treaty.

Re everyone else, I like the idea of sitting back and seeing what develops for now. We coul;d push things along by trading Spanish cities to ND - we seem to be viewing them as a more likely ally than GoW, and they're being very nice to us perhaos in fear of a backstab. Building up goodwill with them wouldn't hurt, and them getting GoW's intended cities might push an ND vs GoW/Lego war closer. Then we can sit back for a while, rebuild forces, grab a few wonders, until GoW and Lego are happy that we're not going to interfere, and then invade the crap out of GoW. And hope ND can hold their own for a while, which may be quite a problem for them if Lego can launch a signifcant naval invasion in the south.

	15-12-2003 15:59									#51
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If we have to take our Stormian cities back by force - RP may remain at war with us until they die. I'd rather wash our hands of them and let them come back to us to renegotiate an alliance.
That's the test - if they can't come to us to negotiate a survival package , then we won't be wanting them on Stormia anyway.

This sounds good - we can offer an in-game swap of each 3 cities next turn. They either accept, or they betray us and die.

	15-12-2003 16:04									#52
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We could even offer ND/GOW the prospect of our terminating the alliance with RP as a deal point for tech / lux to compensate ourselves for returning the asset to RP.

	15-12-2003 16:56									#53
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Hmmmmnm I don't like what is being suggested about RP at all. Don't kill the mocking bird...

What if I was to handle all the diplomacy with RP so no-one else would get pissed off with them?
Then what if I was to promise that I could get them to play along and do what we want when on northern stormia? A promise kinda like staking my reputation as a GSer on this.
If they don't agree to go to north stormia under certain conditions first then I haven't broken the promise though.

Would this stop or at least put off us terminating things with them?
I think I can get them to agree to give us gpt by the end of the day......

	15-12-2003 17:11									#54
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OPD - you are doing a heroic one-man defence of RP at a time when it seems that the rest of us already feel betrayed. However, I haven't seen you yet post an argument that explains why we should trust them in the light of the current betrayal.

You obviously know something we don't, so get their serfdom and BigFree's head on a pole by our turn and the rest of us might move towards your pov. If you can control them like a vassal should be controlled then fine. I personally will need more than your word for it before I'd vote for trusting them, and I believe their fate should be put to a GS vote soon. A vote today would see them on the extinction list, and they should know that.

As Theseus said - they must obey or die. I'm fed up with being nice to RP. They've treated us like sh*t and don't deserve to live. We can't let them determine our fate. Their continued defence of Pamplona could cost us the game.

	15-12-2003 19:02									#55
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Hang on a minute...

BF is an *******. That I already knew. Ignore him.

The question is this: how do we deal ourselves back into this game most effectively?

Do we try to help ND?
Do we try to help GoW?
Do we try to help Lego? (God, no!)
Do we stay out of it and hope they slaughter each other (which I'm pretty sure is what Lego's hoping)?

I say this: if ND wants our (and I mean "our" as in the GS-RP alliance) assistance vs. GoW/Lego, they must leave RP what they've got left, ally with the two of us in-game, and all of us fight GoW. In exchange, RP/GS gets to keep what we've got now and the cities south of Pamp (ND will have to gift 'em over later).

Anything less, **** 'em.

I say we communicate that as our desire to RP.

However, if we do end up with no deal with ND, then RP needs to decide who they will cut a deal with, because we ARE going to leave in that case, which means the only city they can defend is Pamp. If they choose to go down fighting without securing any sort of deal with somebody, I think they forfeit their refuge in N. Stormia. We should also communicate that.

Not harshly, not angrily. Just facts of the game, so to speak.

-Arrian

	15-12-2003 19:38									#56
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Lego would almost certainly enter the war if GS militarily supported ND against GoW. The alternative path is GoW + ND vs Lego to weaken Lego. ND using their leader to rush Sistine might be cool in this department.

GoW are stronger than ND now - after the battle of Pamp-1 - and if we want to join ND against GoW then we also want RP to hold Pamp and GoW to spend on taking it. This would be a reason to support RP in Pamp.

If ND & GoW are to go at Lego now, while we take a rest, we don't want Pamp getting in the way of that.

Also, I think we must pull our troops fully off Bob, even if a deal with ND is on the cards. The to-ing and fro-ing is making me dizzy. If we're back soon, we're back soon, but we should stick to what we said and get off. If we make peace we can negotiate the cities at leisure - assuming we can work with RP.

GS-ers who work with RP-ers in other games are perhaps better placed to deal with them, so hopefully you guys can get somewhere with them where I've been getting nowhere for weeks

	15-12-2003 20:08									#57
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I'll try and talk to Arnelos.

Do we think there is any way to convince ND & GoW to go after Lego, with assistance from us (perhaps we agree to help kill off the Lego knights currently "protecting" GoW?). Because if ND & GoW fight each other rather than either a) settling down and building like maniacs; or b) taking on Lego, Lego wins. We know this. I assume ND & GoW must at least have considered it (IIRC, Aggie knows it).

Ack, so confusing.

-Arrian

	15-12-2003 20:53									#58
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Assuring GoW and ND that we won't intervene on Bob for xx turns while they damage Lego might be a start.

Resolving Pamplona would be another. ND & GoW will want both GS and RP off their backs if they are to hit Lego.

I'm sure ND see the logic in this, plus Aggie and some of his team mates. Other GoWers will probably back Lego.

So it's headbangers in GoW and RP that are more concerned with roleplaying feuds with each other and us than seeking a way for their team or alliance to win the game - who are the sticking point. Apart from that, I reckon it's feasible.

	15-12-2003 23:03									#59
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I fired off a PM to Arnelos over at MZO asking to talk generally about this stuff. I hope to have some time tonight to get into chat and discuss things there if I haven't already heard back from him (I won't be able to chat for about 6 hrs).

I basically told him that GS is having a helluva time trying to work out "where we go from here" and that we were getting mixed signals from RP.

-Arrian

	15-12-2003 23:31									#60
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Togas is on IRC, from what I gather he remains king of Spain. See contact log.