14-12-2003 02:15									#31
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The countries aren't equal. the people are. I the pro EU leaders must take more of a tough stance on this: either you're in, or you're out.

	14-12-2003 02:19									#32
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I believe a lot of this has to do with the "f" word too.


f=federal (europe)

	14-12-2003 02:21									#33
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I actually believe that the system suggested by the constitution is fair since Poland, Spain etc. gain very big advantages compared to a system that is only based on population. The new system discriminates the larger countries as well, not as much as the old one, but it does. It is already a concession to the smaller countries and of course, the larger ones must make concessions but there are limits. I doubt that anybody in Germany would understand that his vote is just as half worth as a Spanish or Polish one.
BTW it was Germany that pushed the Polish membership in the EU. I find it really funny that they now accuse us of suppressing them...

	14-12-2003 02:22									#34
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Oh, and Plato, my question could be directed to you as well.

	14-12-2003 02:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Sprayber, Although it sucks on most other points, doesn't the commision/parlament system suit this criteria sufficiently?

Apparently there are a lot of Europeans that don't think so.

From what I understand of the EU (I could be horribly mistaken in my facts.)

The parliment seems to be mostly like our House of Represtatives with larger countries having more seats.

The Commission has one person for the small countries and two from the larger countries.

The council of the EU has different numbers for different countries with France, Germany and the UK with the most.

In all three the larger countries are more represented. Although i guess the smaller ones could band together in the Commission.

	14-12-2003 02:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I believe a lot of this has to do with the "f" word too. f=federal (europe)

Thats a dirty word in may parts of the South and West in America as well.

	14-12-2003 02:31									#37
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Comrade Ingrid,

Problem is, mention the words "federal EU" and many people freak out because this system "will move all power from the individual states to Brussels"

I agree it's stupid to say that because depending on the date, our power will be in Strasbourg some of the time, too.

	14-12-2003 02:32									#38
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That may be the EU's problem. Too much compromise and you have a system that is patched together. Either a country is in or they can be out. I'm sure the smaller ones will feel much pressue to be in.

	14-12-2003 02:36									#39
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It's all about the sovereignity. Once the sovereignity will lie within the federation and not the individual dinosaurs, only then will things start rolling.

	14-12-2003 02:40									#40
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it is interesting to see blair and aznar pleading not to do something which would "compromise the unity of the EU"
whereas it is clear, that those who dont want to go further in integration, they can stay behind and if there is no compromise, I think that's exactly what could happen.

	14-12-2003 02:59									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber In all three the larger countries are more represented. Although i guess the smaller ones could band together in the Commission.

The smaller countries do have relatively more representation in the parliament though. IIRC Luxembourg with 400.000 people has 6 MEPs while Germany with 80 mill has 99 MEPs... Do the math

And then there's the possibility the commission will have one person from each country after the enlargement.(?)

	14-12-2003 03:01									#42
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It is very easy for Americans to mock the difficulties we Europeans have in creating a viable system in which all countries get their fair say.

The differences in legislation, culture and tradition are too big for this to happen in any short span of time. Remember...we are talking about a group of countries that were in two large wars between eachother within the last 90 years.

It will happen, eventually, but it will take far longer time, than any of the current leaders would like.

Asmodean

	14-12-2003 03:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 it is interesting to see blair and aznar pleading not to do something which would "compromise the unity of the EU" whereas it is clear, that those who dont want to go further in integration, they can stay behind and if there is no compromise, I think that's exactly what could happen.

	14-12-2003 05:07									#44
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Poland has done the first political application of the famous Groucho Marx line : I would not join a club that would accept me.

	14-12-2003 06:09									#45
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Look for this priceless picture on the front cover of tomorrow's newspapers.

	14-12-2003 06:16									#46
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"I didn't mean that joke with the helicopter alright"?

	14-12-2003 06:28									#47
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BTW they agreed upon the bases for the new organisms.

Germany -the organism for airtransport security
Austria-human rights
Italy-control of foods
Finland - control of chemicals
Spain - fishery
UK- police academy
Holland- judicial cooperation
Portugal - sea law
France - railroads
Sweden - control of ilnesses and infectuous diseases
Greece - protection of networks and IT systems

	14-12-2003 06:37									#48
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Given the success of the US constitution in balancing states rights with the rights of the people, I have no idea why Europe does simply copy the US constitution?

Arrogance?

	14-12-2003 06:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Given the success of the US constitution in balancing states rights with the rights of the people, I have no idea why Europe does simply copy the US constitution? Arrogance?

Definitely, cannot be anything else.

	14-12-2003 06:47									#50
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Yes, the answer is arrogance. It is undoubtedly so.

	14-12-2003 06:52									#51
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The other reason is stupidity.

	14-12-2003 06:55									#52
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Or possibly both : stupid arrogance or arrogant stupidity. Looks like pleonasms though.

	14-12-2003 07:10									#53
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One person, one vote.

To hell with states' 'rights'. Population should be the sole determinant of voting power.

	14-12-2003 07:47									#54
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Sandman, I totally agree. Down with states and with representatives. Power to the people! Direct elections of a Fuhrer and direct vote on all legislation propounded by the executive!

	14-12-2003 08:12									#55
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Remember when you had deluded yourself into thinking there had been a terrorist attack on London, and it had been 'in the news'?

	15-12-2003 00:59									#56
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW they agreed upon the bases for the new organisms. Germany -the organism for airtransport security Austria-human rights Italy-control of foods Finland - control of chemicals Spain - fishery UK- police academy Holland- judicial cooperation Portugal - sea law France - railroads Sweden - control of ilnesses and infectuous diseases Greece - protection of networks and IT systems

the old members were in a hurry to share them among themselves before the enlargement, eh?

	15-12-2003 01:03									#57
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You can't give something to someone untill he's in, formally I think.

	15-12-2003 01:10									#58
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I guess so. I don't think the EU will have any problems making up some new very important agencies for the newcomers though

	15-12-2003 05:21									#59
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that list has got to be a mickey take, especially the greek one...

personally (and i think most english people would agree with me here) i'm glad this can't be agreed upon, signing that piece of garbage would just be surrendering yet more of our soverignty.

also in other news blair has given the first indication that we might actually get a veto on the constitution (providing one is actually agreed upon), which of course, much like the euro, the english will never accept.

	15-12-2003 05:24									#60
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why the mickey take? I personally think that england should only get our balls.

Besides I think that the whole system is clear. Those who want go forth those who dont, stay back.