15-12-2003 05:28									#61
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greece the country that banned computer games is in charge of IT, pull the other one...

to be honest, i can't see france and germany effectivly spilting the EU like that, but if some countries want to go ahead then good luck to them.

	15-12-2003 05:30									#62
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In reply to the "this is a rich club and I don't see why we should let the poor in" post: remember that Denmark for example wasn't a part of the free capitalist west by default - it was decided by three guys in a meeting.

So neither the fact that Romania is poor today or Denmark is rich today is because of their own choosing.

	15-12-2003 05:30									#63
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it was a ban never actually enforced, repieled fast and aimed at gambling.
dont stay at pretexes.

whereas the only police academy england can hope to put together is the one on the movies. you do have the highest crime rate.

honestly the EU will not split, some will simply stay behind and out. they'll have only what we have now.

	15-12-2003 05:34									#64
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We need to resurrect the EEC, and to put all those Poles, Brits, Danes, and whatever nationalistic dinosaur country in. They'll be very happy to be in their beloved regime of single market and single commercial policy.

OTOH, other countries that are actually willing to progress should be in what would deserve to be called the "European Union", where the institutions having real European power are European. Those nations unting in a federation should be represented with only one seat in the EEC council, with the votes obviously representing the population.

It is obvious some countries want federalism, and some countries don't. Why should we absolutely do the federation all together? Let's have the nationalists stay in an economic conglomerate, and let's have the federalists do their federation without interference, provided the federation belongs to the economic conglomerate.

	15-12-2003 05:34									#65
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and not even that (in the case of england - euro)

	15-12-2003 05:35									#66
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well i heard they were going to have the police academy in greece but some geezers went down there to take some pictures of the proposed site and got themselves arrested...

if that's what actually happens then that would suit england fine, but again the idea of a 'two-tier' europe will be much harder to swallow for our politicans than some stitch up comprimise...

	15-12-2003 05:35									#67
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spiffor, thats what will happen. 3 or for nationalistic dinosaurs in their cage and the others moving on.

I even supsect thats why there was no agreement, to open the way for that.

	15-12-2003 05:37									#68
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spiff i like your idea (the EEC one ), but it won't happen

	15-12-2003 05:37									#69
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yeah and in englah a kid gets arrested for supporting 17 November at a web site, not really the paragorn of police efficiency, to say nothing of the racial riots and IRA on that island.


anyway, yea 2 speed EU that's the plan.

	15-12-2003 05:40									#70
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney well i heard they were going to have the police academy in greece but some geezers went down there to take some pictures of the proposed site and got themselves arrested...

	15-12-2003 05:42									#71
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Ned:
Your country fought a civil war over the question of being a federation or a confederation (very basically, that's the problem faced by the EU nowadays).
You may not be aware of it, but we Europeans don't want to fight each other again. So, adopting your "perfect" constitution is not an option.

	15-12-2003 05:42									#72
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and convicted since they did break the law after expliictely told not to take photos

I dont know if im more surprised at their hobby or their idiocy...

	15-12-2003 05:44									#73
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Well I know you are probably serious Spiff, but if you change your mind with regards to war drop us a hint here in the Balkans, we are always glad to help speed up the progress of civilization

	15-12-2003 05:46									#74
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I like it how blair now pleeds for unity in the EU

He's seen the stick of wood and it is big

	15-12-2003 05:46									#75
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quote: t is very easy for Americans to mock the difficulties we Europeans have in creating a viable system in which all countries get their fair say.

I don't know why it would be particularly easy for Americans to mock Europeans on this score. State power sharing was the toughest nut to crack in our constitution, and our institutions are constructed oddly because of the compromises made. That there would be a fight over this in the EU was entirely foreseeable (I have been mentioning it consistently for a couple of years).

This is an issue worth having a fight over and a half year additional discussion won't hurt a thing. So relax. Failure is too strong a word.

	15-12-2003 05:46									#76
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Spiffor, I agree (despite the very condescending nature of your post). That's a very good idea (resurrecting the eec)
On the other hand, do the people of eg Germany and France actually want a federation?

	15-12-2003 05:48									#77
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VetLegion:
I don't think it'll happen, but stay in tough with the Yanks or the Russians. I'm sure a war in the Balkans will come in handy, somtime in the future, for whomever in place to get reelected

	15-12-2003 05:49									#78
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I think american and european integration processes are like comparing eggs and elephants

	15-12-2003 05:50									#79
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Vetlegion,

So neither the fact that Romania is poor today or Denmark is rich today is because of their own choosing.

I'm quite aware of that and nowhere have I stated Romania isn't worthy of some assistance. Speaking of Denmark, it has been in the very top of foreign aid providers even after recent cuts which is OK with me. However, it doesn't logically follow from Romania's tough luck that we should necessarily share constitution, borders, currency, immigration policy, markets, legislation, economy and parlament with them any time soon.

	15-12-2003 05:56									#80
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Nah, its not failure about some cheap ass votes, its difference of opinion about those who are in favor and against integration.

I rather be in a mega federated EU. My demonic plans will be more easily feasable.

	15-12-2003 06:03									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf On the other hand, do the people of eg Germany and France actually want a federation?

Some do, some don't. But most don't know.

The real problem with Europe is that it's complicated, there is nearly no information about it except when the politicians use it as a convenient scapegoat. However, most people know the idea of Europe is good, as nobody wants to see again the bloodbathes of the past. The EU of today is very impopular.

Actually, there are many uninformed people who don't have an opinion; uninformed people who are hostile to the EU altogether; uninformed people for a federation, out of sympathy for the "union makes stronger" cause, or for the "we're at peace at last" cause; informed people against a federal EU; informed people for a federal EU.

I heard the rumor that a poll gave 70% YES to the constitution project in France. Since it's obvious nearly nobody read the constitution, it seems to show there is a deep sympathy for the idea of letting Europe progress.
Besides, Chirac has announced numerous blendings with Germany (such as having a common Franco-German nationality and ID in the future) without any significant outcry. Lastly, the Euro had no problem being accepted.

All in all, I think sympathy for Europe is important, and the sovereignty doesn't seem to be so much an issue from my glimpses into public opinion.

As to say whether the French in general want a federation or to continue today's system. I believe the huge majority wouldn't even understand the question, because all of this is too abstract. However, I feel that most people think today's EU is stuck and must change.

	15-12-2003 06:04									#82
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I rather be in a mega federated EU. My demonic plans will be more easily feasable.

HEY! Those are MY evil plans !

	15-12-2003 06:07									#83
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I dont see more than 3 MS complaining. i see a 12 euro zone being made, i see determination to push forward and let the oterhs drag their feet.

i doubt there's a problem. and i suspect that was france's doing (FRANCE'S DOING!!!!) to have the talks collapse, so to go on with the plan of core 1st speed integration countries and the rest the drageurs.
It takes time to do that, about 1 year

	15-12-2003 06:08									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor HEY! Those are MY evil plans !

You can be my demonic archangel if you want!
But the antichrist has got to be me. i have the best avatar

	15-12-2003 06:12									#85
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Spiffor, I take it your not a big fan of referenda?

	15-12-2003 06:13									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor As to say whether the French in general want a federation or to continue today's system. I believe the huge majority wouldn't even understand the question, because all of this is too abstract. However, I feel that most people think today's EU is stuck and must change.

Yep, good point about understanding the question. For the outsiders (not-yet-members) the question is clear - just get in at any price and as fast as possible, federation schmederation, we don't care

Speaking from one of those countries I can say that primary goal of our foreign policy is to get into EU. As to why, how and such trivia, it is not discussed much. And what after that, we also don't know.

There is a strong impression in the people that EU is a good thing, but few know what EU really is. I am fairly interested (well, more than the average Croat) and I still don't understand half of the deal.

But it doesn't matter, if it goes down in flames, lets all do it together (more fun that way)

	15-12-2003 06:13									#87
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 You can be my demonic archangel if you want! But the antichrist has got to be me. i have the best avatar

Rats, I didn't think about that.

	15-12-2003 06:19									#88
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quote: Since it's obvious nearly nobody read the constitution

Too damn long and convoluted!

	15-12-2003 06:21									#89
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We don't know if the peoples of France and Germany want a federation, because it's very important for the development of a strong union that we don't actually ask the people what they want. We'll lose valuable time if we resort to democracy and people somehow get it wrong, even if they might say yes the second or the third time we ask them within the same decade.

Spiffor, it seems to me that you're saying there's been a major shift of opinion since half the French population rejected Maastricht the one time somebody bothered to ask?

Last edited by Monk on 15-12-2003 at 06:27

	15-12-2003 06:22									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Spiffor, I take it your not a big fan of referenda?

I am a big fan of referenda. I think it is the best way to take important decisions in a democracy.

Actually, I'd LOVE that the governments would shut up, and that a Europe-wide referendum was taken, on whether the people of Europe accept or reject the constitution. But sadly it won't happen.

But even though I like referenda, it doesn't make it any less clear that people are widely uninformed about the EU. Heck, I'm almost done in my studies of political sciences, with a significant knowledge and serious interest for Europe, and even I didn't read the constitution entirely (only the 60 first pages on the ~260).
Of course, if a referendum was held, the campaign would make people aware of the general consequences of a YES or NO vote. But for now, the immense majority of people are having uninformed feelings about the issue. Those feelings seem to be rather sympathetic to Europe (which goes in my way), but they're uninformed nonetheless.