14-12-2003 00:30									#1
	EU summit a failure after talks break down Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Dec13.html
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europ...mmit/index.html


EU diplomats are trying hard to make believe that this is no major setback, but the fact that the talks have broken down as a result of a new member state demanding equal rights with France and Germany is hard to swallow for some of the old member states.

I say: If the Poles want to play hardball, then so can we. We don't need them even half as much as they need us. Let them taste that, I say

Asmodean

	14-12-2003 00:33									#2
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One word:

Berlusconi

That man really shouldn't do things like this, being president I mean.

	14-12-2003 00:34									#3
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There was agreement about defense though.

	14-12-2003 00:35									#4
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Well it's bad enough that he's a TV Tycoon. The other media in Italy don't get half as many chances as his network does.

Still...not everything in this can be blamed on Berlusconi. It is quite unheard of that a new member state such as Poland behave in the way that they have

Asmodean

	14-12-2003 00:37									#5
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quote: I say: If the Poles want to play hardball, then so can we. We don't need them even half as much as they need us. Let them taste that, I say

They're not even a member and already they are scr*wing things up.

	14-12-2003 00:37									#6
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It is however they were not alone.

	14-12-2003 00:39									#7
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but seriously, yep it's all Berlusconi's fault

	14-12-2003 00:40									#8
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Poland is a sizeable country. But equal in clout to the likes of Britain, France or Germany? No...

	14-12-2003 00:42									#9
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I still remember Poland being the only country IIRC raising objections when christianity didn't get included in the constitution.

	14-12-2003 00:44									#10
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from what I understand, Spain is just as much to "blame" as Poland

	14-12-2003 00:46									#11
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It would seem that the 2 speed EU will happen. But not in the old sense (one group in "prefered" mode, the other lagging behind) but 2 speed integration EU. With the countries that want to go ahead in more speedy integration doing so and the others remaining behind.

	14-12-2003 00:49									#12
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It's probably for the best. The Constitution was not very good anyway.

	14-12-2003 00:51									#13
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Hmm I don't know. I think I'll agree with the greek PM who said that the votes were the "pretense" and the different views about the future of the EU were the "cause" of why there wasn't an agreement.

	14-12-2003 00:51									#14
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And the process gets another one of those much-needed obstructions

Nice to see that others than Scandinavia and the British Isles are prepared to do the work.

	14-12-2003 01:04									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Monk And the process gets another one of those much-needed obstructions Nice to see that others than Scandinavia and the British Isles are prepared to do the work.

Seriously, if Poland keeps going with this "our way or no way" attitude, we should tell them go poop their pants

	14-12-2003 01:25									#16
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Pfft.

They should have extended the Danish Presidency for another 2 x 6 months and held the summit in Copenhagen, Danish PM Anders Fogh could then have created another miracle, like he did last year with the expansion.

I mean, really.

	14-12-2003 01:26									#17
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Seriously, if Poland keeps going with this "our way or no way" attitude, we should tell them go poop their pants

We should do that anyway. What's the point of inviting everybody inside? Everybody knows it's only cool to be in a club if a substantial amount of people IS denied access (edit: my grammar sucks, man!), and every Eastern inductee means lesser power for you and me.

Hey, the two last lines rhyme! I could be a protest singer.

Last edited by Monk on 14-12-2003 at 01:32

	14-12-2003 01:37									#18
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I don't really care about power as long as we get a good peaceful life. I have many friends from Russia and Poland and from that perspective I'm happy Poland is in. I hope Russia will also join some day

	14-12-2003 01:44									#19
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So the Poles are bad because they don't want to have to suck up to the French and Germans. I thought the whole idea of a united Europe was affirming that all the countries were equal. As long as there is some kind of a tier system where some countries are more important than others, your little experiment is just another attempt at domination. Are French citizens more important than Poles?

Can a European list the countries in order of importance? I'd be really interested to see just how you all would list them.

	14-12-2003 01:50									#20
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I assume in the US, Wyoming is as influential as California?

	14-12-2003 01:57									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid I assume in the US, Wyoming is as influential as California?

Both have two votes in the Senate. House of reps is based on population. So...based upon influence per person, Wyoming has more. Obviously, because of the population difference, California has more overall influence.

Of course, Europeans are far to arrogant to adopt that kind of system. I can imagine Chirac saying, "All European Nations are equal...some are just more equal than others". Sounds to me like the Old Europe is trying to run an Animal Farm

	14-12-2003 02:01									#22
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In the senate, yes.

	14-12-2003 02:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Both have two votes in the Senate. House of reps is based on population. So...based upon influence per person, Wyoming has more. Obviously, because of the population difference, California has more overall influence. Of course, Europeans are far to arrogant to adopt that kind of system.

Not arrogant, just stupid. I hope EU adopts that system. Problem is, mention the words "federal EU" and many people freak out because this system "will move all power from the individual states to Brussels"

	14-12-2003 02:04									#24
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We already made the mistake of trying to have 13 more or less separate countries though, The British gave us some **** for that way back when.

If the EU is going to work they are going to have to do a lot of things that they won't want to do.

But, they are ahead of the curve, so to speak, on the currency issue.

	14-12-2003 02:04									#25
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You can't get it perfect. We have respresentation based on population in which large states dominate. We also have represtation in which all states are equal. Perhaps you guys should come up with a similar system.

The point being, are French and Germans that much more special then Poles and Slovenes. And if they are, what does that say about the European Union.

	14-12-2003 02:07									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The point being, are French and Germans that much more special then Poles and Slovenes. And if they are, what does that say about the European Union.

Alot. It also says a lot about how France and Germany (particularly France) view the rest of the world. Once this changes (if it ever does) then the EU will have a chance to become something very special. Until then, it is really nothing more than an interesting economic experiment.

	14-12-2003 02:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha We already made the mistake of trying to have 13 more or less separate countries though, The British gave us some **** for that way back when.

Then grow a spine and leave the Brits out if they don't play ball. Good for them if they can bully the EU and get the best of both worlds. But this crap of having different tiers of nations will only get you resentment later on. For the larger countries the EU is a great idea. For the smaller ones it seems like it is their only choice.

	14-12-2003 02:10									#28
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Sprayber,

quote: You can't get it perfect. We have respresentation based on population in which large states dominate. We also have represtation in which all states are equal. Perhaps you guys should come up with a similar system.

Although it sucks on most other points, doesn't the commision/parlament system suit this criteria sufficiently?

	14-12-2003 02:11									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Can a European list the countries in order of importance? I'd be really interested to see just how you all would list them.

Obviously we can't. But a lot of people in the "old member states" are sick and tired of having to pay for bringing the new member states "up to speed" financially, and in terms of democracy. Most of the new member states are still new democracies. Something which is of great concern to the older member states.

In these new member states, corruption is widespread, there is no democratic tradition and therefore there is a real possibility that they don't have the nescessary stability to being members of the EU.

These are valid concerns, IMHO. But that doesn't have anything to do with what happened today.

Asmodean

	14-12-2003 02:13									#30
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Sprayber i'm talking about the US.
[edit]: Articles of Confederation