14-12-2003 01:27									#1
	More on Agriculture Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The advantages of the agricultural trait are well documented:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...23&pagenumber=2

Most of the opinions expressed in that thread, including my own, were provisional given the lack of experience with this new trait. Having played 10-15 start to AD now I see nothing to change my opinion that agricultural is the new industrious.

One factor that has contributed to this, that I don't believe was discussed in the thread, is the key role that 1 extra food plays in eanbling the creation of 4 turn settler factories. Essentially with one extra food than normal in the capital you only need two more to contribute to the surplus to hit the magic five. Circumstances in which this can occur are commonplace.......for example an irrigated cow on grassland.

In contrast for a non-agricultural civ you need a very nice start to pull off the 4 turn factory. In many cases the 'mere' 1 extra food for an agricultural civ turns a nice start into a killer one, even without rivers*. 5 surplus food is just so much better than 4.

*This of course should be interpreted as not needing 2 rivers. 1 river is sufficient.

Last edited by DrSpike on 14-12-2003 at 05:14

	14-12-2003 04:16									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Erm, begging your pardon, but you don't get that extra food unless you DO start with rivers.

That's the nature of agricultural - it can score big, or you can end up playing a game, effectively with one trait.

(Of course, you AI-playing folk probably just restart until you get that river.... )

	14-12-2003 04:57									#3
	Re: More on Agriculture Increase the size of your Attachments

Thanks. Actually that's freaky..........someone posted to tell me the day I got Conquests that after the capital, only cities on rivers got the bonus. I firmly believed this, since all games with agricultural civs (at least 4 or 5) have been on rivers, and I have not restarted once.

Still, the rest is still true, and new I think, but I guess I'll remove the 'even without rivers' part.

Also, the agricultural trait is not, I think, a bad one even without rivers............one certainly would not be playing the game with one trait if the start position had no rivers.

Last edited by DrSpike on 14-12-2003 at 05:10

	14-12-2003 05:20									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

can't be worse than playing as a seafaring civ on pangea...

	14-12-2003 05:47									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yep, only with rivers does the +1 bonus count.

Just as well. Agricultural is incredibly powerful and would be broken if all cities got the food bonus.

On a side note, I've been looking for the civ that might actually do something culturally at Emperor level. By my reckoning, the Celts are the way to go. Check out my latest save game to see how you can quickly put the others on the back foot through culture and growth alone. Whether it will last is another question, but it's a very good start.

Attachment: brennus of the celts, 390 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	14-12-2003 10:47									#6
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Yeah, that's nice Jeem.

	14-12-2003 10:48									#7
	Put an end to popups!

All cities DO get food bonus!

However, since I assume you are talking about the impact of the trait pre-newgovernment you are right that only cities located next to rivers or lakes will feel the effect - as this overwrites the food production penalty otherwise dealt by a Despotic government.

	14-12-2003 15:58									#8
	Remove this text

Just to clarify all, of course I am talking about despotism in discussing setting up the 4 turn settler factory.

	14-12-2003 18:37									#9
	Re: Re: More on Agriculture Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Also, the agricultural trait is not, I think, a bad one even without rivers............one certainly would not be playing the game with one trait if the start position had no rivers.

Exactly what good is the trait sans river? You can't irrigate desert without fresh water, either. Simply having cheaper aquaducts and some improvements in the industrial era doesn't make for much of a trait.

	14-12-2003 19:03									#10
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Well all cities get the boost later upon govt switch. And desert tiles can often be utilised later when you have found a way to bring fresh water to your empire. Also cheaper aqueducts are nice as you say.

Obviously the trait is best with rivers, but it's certainly not worthless without them.

	14-12-2003 20:37									#11
	Re: Re: Re: More on Agriculture Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Exactly what good is the trait sans river? You can't irrigate desert without fresh water, either. Simply having cheaper aquaducts and some improvements in the industrial era doesn't make for much of a trait.

I would play Agr. if it only gave a bonus after a government switch; you can still do some interesting things with Monarchy and fast growth in all our cities. I do admit, however, that as such it would be a pretty boring trait.


Dominae

	15-12-2003 09:55									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You keep mentioning rivers, settling right next to a fresh water lake will work just as well though.

	15-12-2003 14:44									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Fresh water lakes will do fine, sure, but they seem to be a bit more rare than rivers.