15-12-2003 08:32									#1
	The multi-issue "Where does Apolyton stand?" poll Got spare money?

The idea is that you vote for one option from each set of two, but you don't have to vote that way if you don't want. Vote for what closest matches your beliefs. And if in doubt, for example, on the abortion question: Consider it to be the US we're talking about. Otherwise we'll get skewed results from people in countries with different stances on it.

Last edited by Jaguar on 15-12-2003 at 08:54

	15-12-2003 08:46									#2
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Oh, and for the last 4 options, you can vote for any one of the first three, and then either vote or don't vote on the last one.

	15-12-2003 08:53									#3
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He he he, three conservatives so far, zero liberals.

Except none of the conservatives so far have been very hardcore.

	15-12-2003 08:59									#4
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The problem is, these aren't one-side-or-the-other issues. For instance, I feel that the government should seperate itself more from embracing any particular religion or religions, yet I feel that faith-based programs have as much right to be federally funded as secular programs.

That being said...good thread

	15-12-2003 09:05									#5
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I tried to break issues down as much as possible, but there are far more than a dozen different things we debate.

	15-12-2003 09:08									#6
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I'll list my answers right here so I can later on compare them on the opinions I'll have in the future -- it can be interesting to notice what ideals have changed, and why (the data is much safer in here than in my HD.
- Government should do less wealth redistribution
- Government needs to take over some things that are done by the private sector
- The private sector needs to take over things currently done by the government
- Government should regulate the private sector more
- Government should do more to protect the environment
- The government needs to further separate itself from religion
- The death penalty should be used under some circumstances
- Abortion rights should be expanded
- Government should illegalize things like that ("things like that": marijuana etc.)
- Police can limit rights in favor of national security
- Government should allow civil unions only
- Gay couples should be allowed to adopt

	15-12-2003 09:22									#7
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Government needs to take over some things that are done by the private sector

AND

The private sector needs to take over things currently done by the government

are not mutually exclusive, and I agree with both of those statements.

	15-12-2003 09:24									#8
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Government should do less wealth redistribution
The private sector needs to take over things currently done by the government
The death penalty should be used under some circumstances
Government should illegalize things like that
Police can limit rights in favor of national security
Western countries should try to spread democratic ideology throughout the world
Government should allow gay marriage
Gay couples should be allowed to adopt

	15-12-2003 09:40									#9
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I screwed up on one section. Should have voted for the government needs to separate itself from religion. I believe that the government needs to be secular, but should not shy away from working with faith based charities.

	15-12-2003 10:09									#10
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Hmm, this is difficult for me. I can agree with things on both sides of many of those issues. Like "Western countries should try to spread democratic ideology throughout the world" Yes I agree with this statement, as stated.

However its probably meant to mean things like the invasion of Iraq, which I disagree with. As it doesn't say how the ideology should be spread, I'm not sure what to think.

"Western democracies should leave the ROW alone "

I agree with this too. But some anti-globalization folks could take this to mean we stop trading with the rest of the world and cage Mickey Mouse. This I'd disagree with.

	15-12-2003 10:16									#11
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I went into hardcore leftist mode on this one.

The only thing where I should haven't voted at all is on the "democracy around the world" question. I think western countries should spread the ideals of democracy around the world, but I think such process should be subtle, and certainly not through bloodbath.

	15-12-2003 10:22									#12
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Sorry to piss on your poll, neighbor.

	15-12-2003 10:26									#13
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There is a problem about the privacy question. I would never agree to let police limit my rights in favor of national security. But I would a court - as is permitted under the law today. The police do not have a free hand in the US. Do they have a free hand outside the US for national security reasons without having to get permission from a judge?

	15-12-2003 10:32									#14
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quote: The problem is, these aren't one-side-or-the-other issues. For instance, I feel that the government should seperate itself more from embracing any particular religion or religions, yet I feel that faith-based programs have as much right to be federally funded as secular programs.

I agree with this as well. That's why I voted for both options.

oh yes, i was VERY bothered by the lack of an option to vote for "Government should nationalize Banana Farms"

	15-12-2003 10:37									#15
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Mine:

Government should do more to protect the environment
The government needs to further separate itself from religion
The death penalty should not be used under any circumstances
People should have more personal freedom (ie to smoke marijuana)
The individual needs more privacy from the government, more trial rights, etc
Western democracies should leave the ROW alone
Government should allow gay marriage
Gay couples should be allowed to adopt


Any "couplet" that I didn't comment on is something that I feel is "fine" at the moment, and needs no increasing or decreasing.

Yup.

	15-12-2003 19:45									#16
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Government needs to do more to redistribute wealth - I wouldn't call it wealth distribution exactly, but I believe, certainly in the US, in raising the tax rate to pay for public services. Purely because I believe in a basic healthcare for all, and that would involve raising tax in the US.

Government needs to take over some things that are done by the private sector - Same as above, healthcare should be available to all. While I'm all for private clinics too, there should be a government run basic healthcare service that anyone can use.

Government should not regulate the private sector more - With the exception of environmental regulations, as the next question is for, I think the government should let business get on with it's job. However I think firms should pay the full public costs of their actions, not just the private costs. So tradable pollution permits to make them pay the public cost of the pollution they spew I'm all for.

Government should do more to protect the environment - I think currently many countries, the US especially, do not pay the full public/world cost of the pollution they spew. The amount of pollution coming from the US is huge, and it affects the whole world. We are all paying, in terms of environmental damage, for the US's economy, and that isn't right.

The government needs to further separate itself from religion - Freedom of religion should be preserved, but so should freedom from religion. I don't want laws that I have to observe to be made according to a religion I don't believe in. If religious people wish to live by them, that's great, but don't expect me to abide by the laws of a religion I don't subscribe too. Also, the current inherant Christianity in government, such as Bush's speaches ended with "God Bless America" don't exactly help freedom of religion for those that don't agree with the notion of God, or who call him by a different name. Government should be secular. However this goes both ways. The government should stay out of religion too.

The death penalty should be used under some circumstances - This was a hard choice, as I'm not pro-death penalty, but I think life in prison puts too much economic pressure on a nation. It can also be a good bargaining tool. Therefore, while I would like to see it used extremely rarely, I wouldn't want it completely taken off the table, so I'm marginally more this position than having it banned.

Abortion rights should be expanded - I think a women has a right to withdraw her services at any time. I think it should be up to the doctor and women, not a court, to decide.

People should have more personal freedom (ie to smoke marijuana) - I think it's your body to destroy as you wish. However I would like to see smokers have to pay for some of their treatment in hospital, since while it's you right to smoke, I don't see why I should pay for the consequences of your actions. If you want to take the risk, go ahead though. I also think the age of consent should be lowered, as it is for ther teenage to decide when they have sex, and that any adult should be allowed to sign any contract they wish.

The individual needs more privacy from the government, more trial rights, etc - The word privacy did it for me here. I think a person has a right to privacy and fair trial. However I think the police should have enough power to catch criminals. I think it's a fine balance, but I think the Patriot Act went too far, and thus I am marginally on the side of more privacy and trial rights.

Western democracies should leave the ROW alone - In terms of force. A ruler of a foreign nation should not have to have their leadership ratified by the US or anyone else. I think we should judge leaders on their actions, not how they came to power, too.

Government should allow civil unions only - I think gays deserve the same rights as straight people, with regards to legal union and cohabitation. However. while I am for Gay civil unions, to me, marriage is a religious event, and so I am against the government telling religions that they have to accept something they disagree with as acceptable. I think they should be allowed civil unions, with the same rights as a married couple, but without the religious connontations of marriage. Hence pro-gay civil unions but anti-gay marriage.

Gay couples should be allowed to adopt - I think a loving home is a loving home, whether straight or gay. As long as they pass the usual tests for adoptive parents, I see no reason not to allow gay couples to adopt.

	15-12-2003 19:55									#17
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Left wing, right wing, we still need bananas!
In response to the question "Where does Apolyton stand?", the only answer is banana. And you didn't even put it in your poll!

	15-12-2003 19:56									#18
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duke: No, as i said before in the thread the correct answer is "The Government should nationalize Banana Farms."

	15-12-2003 19:57									#19
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Gays should have all rights removed.

	15-12-2003 19:59									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Gays should have all rights removed.

And you are again one post away from a restriction... take your anti gay crap to another site.

	15-12-2003 20:01									#21
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Drogue - We pretty much answered the same except for the regulation of the private sector. Good show

	15-12-2003 20:01									#22
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I dislike government.

It gets more and more overblown.

Politicians like to be all things to all people. So they get involved in more not less. They promise to make things better but almost never does anything actually come out better. Much better if we could manage to stop then meddling.

In particular I hate governments as legislators. In the UK we are engulfed in a flood of government made law. It is all bad.

When the law looks back to see how particular problems have been resolved in the past it does fine. When a legislative body tries to make law it does a very very bad job.

So most of the questions had no good answer for me. because in one way or the other most gave a role to government. When I would like the sole business of government to be the finding of ways to do ever less than it did before.

	15-12-2003 20:05									#23
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i would broadly agree with EST, i think lord salisbury put it best:

'[the role of the british government...]is to meander gently down stream, casting out occasional boat hooks to avoid disaster...'

	15-12-2003 20:06									#24
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quote: And you are again one post away from a restriction... take your anti gay crap to another site.

Such as where?

	15-12-2003 20:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Such as where?

I frankly don't care... as long as it isn't HERE.

So take it somewhere else... because the next time, there will be no warning... just a quick and long restriction. You have been warned often enough on this subject.

	15-12-2003 20:19									#26
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This site is available, Park Lane.
http://www.grim.org/

Definitely the opposite of Gay.

	15-12-2003 20:19									#27
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Oh come on Ming, it's Christmas

Bet you're looking forward to the 5am start,

	15-12-2003 20:24									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Oh come on Ming, it's Christmas Bet you're looking forward to the 5am start,

That's why I gave you yet another warning... tis the season

And THANK GOD... my kids like to sleep in, so it won't be 5am... More like 7:30 am. I'll probably be awake before them.

	15-12-2003 20:33									#29
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Oh yeah, gotta get the all-important golf round in first..

	15-12-2003 20:40									#30
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Nah... Even if by some chance it's nice enough to play golf that day, my wife would shoot me if I even considered it.

We throw a big party for our friends on Christmas night... and after we open gifts in the morning, the rest of the day is spent getting ready for the evening.