17-12-2003 01:59									#31
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Florida will probably flip. No butterfly ballot, insignificant Greens, the 50,000 illlegally removed voters will be eligable this time around,* new voting machines, Kate Harris might run for the Senate, etc. Most of the numerous factors that went in to tilting this state for Bush last time won't be in play.





*(Florida has agreed to a consent decree that requires these voters be re-instated, but Jeb has defied the Courts before, so this may still be a factor next year.)

	17-12-2003 02:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer That is actually an excellent point.

Betcha this time around Gore would blow Bush's ass away. He's changed, and is much more firey now.

	17-12-2003 02:03									#33
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True. But he isn't running this time, and last time he was a stuffed shirt. I didn't vote for Gore in 2000, and I wouldn't vote for 2000 Gore in 2004. Would I vote for the new Gore in 2004? Maybe.

	17-12-2003 06:36									#34
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quote: You really think Bush would take New England? New York? New Jersey? The West Coast?

Yes... I'm looking back at 1988 (look below)....

quote: Anyone who doubts that 2004 is going to be a close election is fooling themselves.

The same thing was said in early '88. In fact most predicted Bush would lose (he was down in the polls). But incumbancy was a big boost.

Bush's political advisors are just as good (if not better) than his father's. That and the economy looks like it'll rebound greatly early next year.

	17-12-2003 06:53									#35
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The more the Dems love and adore their candidate, sweeter the Republican victory.

Actually, I agree with Lieberman on most issues. He actually could give George Bush a good run for his money. But, anyone can see that the Democrats are not going to nominate Joe Lieberman.

I thought was funny that Howard Dean said today that one of his top priorities as a president would be to combat terrorism and to combat the spread of weapons of mass instruction.

Really?

How can anyone believe this guy.

	17-12-2003 09:04									#36
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ramo


Right. I have no idea of what Fun is referring to.
[QUOTE]

I remember when some CNN reporters were talking about how the Democrats criticized Bush for not capturing Saddam NOR Osama.

	17-12-2003 10:27									#37
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Guy, have the Democrats made common cause with self-declared COMMUNISTS?

Fun, Cheney is working on Bush to be more gay-friendly.

	17-12-2003 10:31									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Betcha this time around Gore would blow Bush's ass away. He's changed, and is much more firey now.

But Bush knows just a little more about foreign policy now. I bet he could even name the ex leader of Iraq!

	17-12-2003 10:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Florida will probably flip. No butterfly ballot, insignificant Greens, the 50,000 illlegally removed voters will be eligable this time around,* new voting machines, Kate Harris might run for the Senate, etc. Most of the numerous factors that went in to tilting this state for Bush last time won't be in play. *(Florida has agreed to a consent decree that requires these voters be re-instated, but Jeb has defied the Courts before, so this may still be a factor next year.)

Lord knows, you sure taught Jeb a thing or two.

	17-12-2003 14:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Significant progress? Not from where I am standing (rather, sitting). GWB has too many areas that can be open to attacks, e.g. handling of Enron and Microsoft, the Hilaburton scandal, the Patriot Act, Department of Homeland Security, etc. Don't forget, the US put Saddam where he was.

In a spiderhole!

	17-12-2003 14:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Agreed, but you also need to energize the base; the results of the failure to do so in 2000 and 2002 is proof enough of that. Unfortunately, the current candidates who are closer to the center couldn't energize a 14-year-old boy if they had a copy of Hustler in one hand and a next-generation PlayStation in the other.

If a 14 year old boy has a Hustler in one hand, I doubt you'll find a PlayStation in the other.

	17-12-2003 20:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Guy, have the Democrats made common cause with self-declared COMMUNISTS?

Not following you here.


EDIT: Oh wait, I think I got it. Have I (the Democrats) made common cause with Che (self-declared Communists)?



You think I'm a Democrat? Jeez, I have a little more self-respect than that, thank you very much!

	17-12-2003 21:28									#43
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quote: DLC types were testing out their first-ever candidate, Al Gore.

Whatchyou talkin about, Willis? Al Gore was never a DLC type candidate.

	17-12-2003 21:31									#44
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Madeleine Albright yesterday said while in the Fox News green room preparing to discuss the capture of Saddam Hussein that Bush had Osama bin Laden and was waiting for next year's campaign to reveal his capture.

McDermott, the Democrat senator from Washington said that Bush had long ago captured Saddam in only now had revealed his capture for political purposes.

Does this say something about Bush or does it say something about the Democrats?

	17-12-2003 21:54									#45
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Source?

	17-12-2003 22:21									#46
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G, FOX News, lead story, 8 am Pacific.

	17-12-2003 22:48									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why don't you just vote for Bush then. He'll make you people illegal. Come to Canada, you can download music off the internet, smoke pot and be gay and nobody cares. YAY CANADA!!!

I just might my friend...

If the forces of evil want to turn America into a fascist corporate state, then I may have to escape before political dissidents are rounded up and put in camps behind razor wire.

	17-12-2003 23:04									#48
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Sava, the problem with you conspircacy therorist leftist, is that to you freedom and truth are slavery and lies.

	17-12-2003 23:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, the problem with you conspircacy therorist leftist, is that to you freedom and truth are slavery and lies.

sigh, stop spreading these lies and propaganda Ned...

quote: Albright: Bin Laden Comments Were 'Tongue-in-Cheek'

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frie...,106012,00.html

It's so sad that the dopey right can't tell the difference between a joke and reality.

	17-12-2003 23:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava sigh, stop spreading these lies and propaganda Ned... http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frie...,106012,00.html It's so sad that the dopey right can't tell the difference between a joke and reality.

So she claims after she was roundly ridiculed.

Sava, to the left, propaganda is dogma.

	17-12-2003 23:42									#51
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quote: Sava, to the left, propaganda is dogma.

and to the right, it's big business

	18-12-2003 00:01									#52
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quote: So she claims after she was roundly ridiculed.

or perhaps after she saw the dopey right taking her out of context in order to spread their hate-propaganda...

	18-12-2003 00:53									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Whatchyou talkin about, Willis? Al Gore was never a DLC type candidate.

Actually, Gore was a founding member of the DLC, though that may seem unlikely (but then, Gephardt was another founder). True, Gore had a reasonably progressive voting record up through the mid-80s, and was not initially a DLC type; and the DLC imagined that its first presidential candidate would be Sam Nunn. But Nunn decided not to run, and he and Chuck Robb recruited Gore (who had already declared his candidacy) to run on a DLC-friendly platform; Gore agreed, and immediately flip-flopped on several issues in order to remake himself into a Good Ol' Boy in time for the first ever Super Tuesday Southern primary. From then on in, even though his candidacy was a losing proposition, he was the DLC's boy in that race.

	18-12-2003 05:21									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer and Bush is no idiot

	18-12-2003 05:29									#55
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BTW, all you guys who are writing Dean off already are fooling yourselves. The man is not a hard-core liberal; he's just portraying himself that way to win the support of all the mouthbreathers in the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. Once he gets the nomination and builds his war chest, he's going to head right back to the center of the political spectrum, a position that his past political record actually supports. It's classic political tactics; play to your party's base to get the nomination and then run like hell back to the center to win the hearts of moderate voters in the general election.

Dean could be Bush's worst nightmare.

	18-12-2003 05:30									#56
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Lord knows, you sure taught Jeb a thing or two.

While I'm sure you thought that was pretty clever, several of those factors were still in play, specifically the 50,000 illegally removed voters (the majority o whom were Black and Democrats). Vote fraud was alive and well in Florida in 2002. This may have impacted McBride's win over Reno, and no one expected McBride to beat Bush, though it was supposed to be closer than it turned out to be. Then again, given how successfuly McBride ignored the Black community in Florida, I can't see why it was ever considered a close race at all.

	18-12-2003 05:31									#57
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The problem is Dean has QUITE a run, and when attempting that much of a run, people usually trip over themselves. First, they get accused of flip-flopping (which they are) and then their base gets tired of the flip-flopping and leaves him.

	18-12-2003 05:31									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten BTW, all you guys who are writing Dean off already are fooling yourselves. . . . Dean could be Bush's worst nightmare.

DT gets it.

	18-12-2003 05:33									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The problem is Dean has QUITE a run, and when attempting that much of a run, people usually trip over themselves. First, they get accused of flip-flopping (which they are) and then their base gets tired of the flip-flopping and leaves him.

Actually, he doesn't have that much of a run. All he's done that's made him seem left is to be vocally opposed to the war and the miserable failure's handling of it. He's also vocally critical of Bush, instead of being a normal, placid Democrat.

	18-12-2003 05:39									#60
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quote: The problem is Dean has QUITE a run, and when attempting that much of a run, people usually trip over themselves. First, they get accused of flip-flopping (which they are)

Dean has an advantage in this regard, though, because his record as governor of Vermont is very moderate. He's taken some very liberal stances on the war and other issues during the primaries, but he's also been carefully holding back on certain issues (fiscal responsibility, gun rights) that show his moderate leanings. These are going to be used in the general election to help change Dean's image back to that of a moderate.

quote: and then their base gets tired of the flip-flopping and leaves him.

This is the big question. Are the mouthbreathers smart enough to vote for a centrist Dean to get Bush out of office? Or are they going to vote for Nader again and let Bush have four more years? I'd like to go with the former, but you usually can't go wrong betting on the complete and utter stupidity of a pinko...