19-12-2003 03:53									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, I want a quote, Fun, where Dean was castigating Bush for not benig able to catch Hussein? And it has to be a main point, not ancillary to thaty miserable failure's complete mishandling of the war.

Well, damn -- if I knew I was going to need this information that I saw on CNN, I would have recorded the clip, and e-mailed it to for video download.

	19-12-2003 03:54									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Republican Party has become the majority party in United States because . . . .

Neither party in the US enjoys majority support, Ned. The Repugs get more than 50% of voters, but that's what? 26% of possible voters? The majority party in the US is the apathetic party.

The fight in the Democratic Party, between Dean and the DLCers is whether to chase the non-voters or to chase the Republicans. Ever since the DLC has taken control of the DP, it has lost successively greater numbers of legislative and governertorial races. It seems to get the White House, and nothing else.

The DLCers seem to take the party base for granted, and don't try and do anything to keep them happy. Hence, they've stopped voting in droves. Why vote if your choices are only Republican or Republican-lite? For example, in 2002, McBride ignored the Black community in his race against Jeb Bush, and Black people decided to return the favor. McBride lost miserably, because he didn't pay attention to a key Democratic constituancy. It would be as if the Republicans all of a sudden stopped kowtowing to the Christian Right and started trying to chase liberals.

As they say, if God had meant for us to vote, he'd have given us candidates.

	19-12-2003 04:03									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, because chasing the middle has done the Dumbs so much good in the past ten years. As the Repugs have rushed to the right, the Dumbs have rushed right to catch them. Like the U.S. really needs to Republiocan Parties. Maybe that's why the Democratic base has stopped voting. As they said, "We didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left us." Frankly, if moderates are as smart as they think they are, then this little thing won't be an issue. After all, it was the Republicans who have been saying Saddam's not the issue. BTW, I want a quote, Fun, where Dean was castigating Bush for not benig able to catch Hussein? And it has to be a main point, not ancillary to thaty miserable failure's complete mishandling of the war.

Who cares. You are a communist. Do you think the Democrats want to be known as commie-friendly?

	19-12-2003 04:04									#94
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Why do you want me to be so pure?

	19-12-2003 04:13									#95
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Here is a Harris poll of last year showing that the Repubs have nearly drawn even with the Dems in party affiliation. They have done this primarily by the Dems losing membership as they increasingly cater to their "liberal" wing - which you call "base." Check out the second part of the poll which shows that only 17% of Americans consider themselfs liberal. 83% of Americans are conservative or moderates.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/ha...dex.asp?PID=352

	19-12-2003 04:18									#96
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That's fairly interesting.


Just remembered . . .
About ten plus years ago I read an article in the Nation. (You'll just have to take my word for it as an honest, well-meaning person, and yes I realize it's a biased source.) While less than 20% of folks self-identified as liberals, when asked about specific policiy goals, liberal ideals were typically supported around 1/3rd of the population (some, like gun control, abortion rights, and opposition to the death penalty polled much higher).

There are a couple of inferences you can draw from that. Some who self-identified as moderates were actually liberals, or, moderates and conservatives hold to some liberal ideas.

Remember, conservatives have spent a lot of time making the world liberal into a dirty word.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 19-12-2003 at 08:21

	19-12-2003 04:24									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Mr. Fun, take it from someone twice your age and on your side of the political fence: you'll eventually learn that "I'm disappointed" and "I'm a Democrat" are synonymous phrases.

Yep. Get used to it, it's just like being a Cubs or Red Sox fan.

	19-12-2003 04:40									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why do you want me to be so pure?

There are 2 seperate issues.

1. Your wannabe status. Exemplified by the Che moniker.

2. Getting the democrats to realize that it is insane to run around as a common cause with communists party.

	19-12-2003 07:46									#99
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yep. Get used to it, it's just like being a Cubs or Red Sox fan.

But I think it's as simple as the Democratic candidates not getting themselves into positions where they have to an about-face, or back-pedal like a confounded idiot.

	19-12-2003 08:24									#100
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quote: Originally posted by TCO There are 2 seperate issues. 1. Your wannabe status. Exemplified by the Che moniker.

Wannabe nothing. I am a commie. chegitz != Che. It was a play on words turning an insult around and I thought it was funny, but it helps if you know Yiddish.

quote: 2. Getting the democrats to realize that it is insane to run around as a common cause with communists party.

You probably have a point here.

	19-12-2003 09:13									#101
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But I think it's as simple as the Democratic candidates not getting themselves into positions where they have to an about-face, or back-pedal like a confounded idiot.

That's the problem with sound bites. You can tak ten seconds from a three hour program, and you can elevate a minor point to something of substance.

Case and point, the Paul Wellstone memorial. Out of all the time in the service, the media chose to make an issue of ten seconds of partisanship by Paul's best friend, and hammered on it. They made it seem like it was the whole service, that they'd hijacked the memorial.

That's why I want you to do a search. See if you can find a speech where he made a major point of attacking Bush on not catching Hussein, as opposed to a mere soundbite.

	19-12-2003 09:32									#102
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quote: Come to Canada, you can download music off the internet, smoke pot and be gay and nobody cares.

Hell, if I'm going to pay high taxes for a welfare state I might as well pay them to get national health care What are Canada's immigration laws? Is it tough to get in? How many plants can I grow without getting in serious trouble? Can I claim to practice a religion that uses pot and use religious persecution to expedite my Canadian citizenship?

	19-12-2003 10:04									#103
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's why I want you to do a search. See if you can find a speech where he made a major point of attacking Bush on not catching Hussein, as opposed to a mere soundbite.

The speech that was discussed, was by Dean in which he was blasting Bush for not capturing Saddam and Osama.

So I gather that this was focused on the Bush administration's policy towards occupied Iraq and Afghanistan.

	19-12-2003 11:20									#104
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Oh, I mispoke before. Today Catholics favor the Republican party by 20%, not 2%.

And, here is a clip of why Jewish Democrats are "converting" to Republicanism. Hint: Bush's hardline stance on the war on terror and his disdain for Arafat.

http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wma/ru...15_michelle.asx

The Democrats are quickly losing their constituants.

	19-12-2003 12:16									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Here is a Harris poll of last year showing that the Repubs have nearly drawn even with the Dems in party affiliation. They have done this primarily by the Dems losing membership as they increasingly cater to their "liberal" wing - which you call "base." Check out the second part of the poll which shows that only 17% of Americans consider themselfs liberal. 83% of Americans are conservative or moderates. http://www.harrisinteractive.com/ha...dex.asp?PID=352

As Che has said, given the drubbing that the word "liberal" has taken, I don't think asking people whether they identify as "liberal" has much value; it is more informative to ask them where they stand on a variety of political issues. Do that, and you'll find that the number of people with liberal beliefs is larger than 17%.

It reminds me of the poll done some years back in which college age women were asked where they stood on a variety of political questions traditionally associated with feminism. They overwhelmingly supported feminist positions -- equal rights based on gender, equal pay for equal work, the right of access to birth control, the right to abortion, etc. -- but when then asked "are you a feminist?" the majority said "no" -- not because of what feminism was, but because of what their image of feminism was.

Or, to put it another way: how many Americans do you think enjoy oral sex? And how many of them, if asked, would answer "yes" to the question, "are you a sodomite?"

	19-12-2003 13:55									#106
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Rufus, Perhaps.

But what the poll does show is that the Dems cannot win only with Liberals. They need moderates as well. Right now, independents seem to break heavily for Bush with the lastest poll showing Bush at 60% to Dean's 31%, IIRC. At best Dean seems to be getting the Democrat Party and nobody else.

	19-12-2003 14:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Rufus, Perhaps. But what the poll does show is that the Dems cannot win only with Liberals. They need moderates as well. Right now, independents seem to break heavily for Bush with the lastest poll showing Bush at 60% to Dean's 31%, IIRC. At best Dean seems to be getting the Democrat Party and nobody else.

That may well be true, but it's also meaningless at this stage of the game. First, remember that voters in general, and independents in particular, don't tend to settle on a candidate until the last few weeks of before the election. Second, remember that Dean hasn't started seeking independent votes. Right now, his mission is to win the Democratic nomination -- a process in which independents have almost no say. Once he (or whoever) has that sewn up, he can trust the party apparatus to keep the base on track while he woos independents and disaffected Republicans. That's the traditional "tack left/right for the primaries, then back to the center for the election" strategy that both parties have been using for some time now.

	19-12-2003 21:30									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Rufus, Perhaps. But what the poll does show is that the Dems cannot win only with Liberals.

But what you and many others forget is, 2000 showed that the DP can't win without liberals.

	19-12-2003 21:35									#109
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [Q] Originally posted by TCO You probably have a point here.

They are both good points. I think you drank too much beer at the Heartland and fell in love with a poster. We'll figure it out with a self-criticism circle.

	19-12-2003 21:37									#110
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But what you and many others forget is, 2000 showed that the DP can't win without liberals.

You're not a liberal. You're a commie. Quit messing around with the fellow travellers and join a proper cell.