17-12-2003 00:32									#31
	Support Apolyton

There's no contradiction in supporting the death penalty and opposing abortion.

Aborted fetuses usually haven't been found guilty of commiting atrocious crimes.

	17-12-2003 00:33									#32
	Increase Your PM Length

they are human. they deserve to live. fetuses are parasites anyway.

	17-12-2003 00:35									#33
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed they are human. they deserve to live. fetuses are parasites anyway.

Exactly, Saddam, Serial Killers, and Mass Murderers aren't humane and therefore don't deserve to live.

	17-12-2003 00:38									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Exactly, Saddam, Serial Killers, and Mass Murderers aren't humane and therefore don't deserve to live

i used to think that way too.
but it's too easy of a justification. if we ourselves strip away someone else's humanity, what will we have become?
if pretend that such evil isn't present in humanity, and isn't something we need to be vigilant against, then it'll only crop up again somewhere else.
let him serve as a reminder for how humanity can be perverted for evil.

	17-12-2003 00:43									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nah, their survival gives them the possiblity of converting/infesting others. Better to whack off the genetic mutation from the gene pool.

	17-12-2003 00:45									#36
	Get a bigger avatar today!

experiment on them, torture them, i don't care. you can make their lives miserable. you don't have the right to kill them, though.

	17-12-2003 01:03									#37
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Why does the state have the right to torture Saddam, but not kill him? I'd rather be killed than tortured for the rest of my life.

	17-12-2003 01:06									#38
	Put an end to popups!

there's no injunction against life being miserable or not. there is one against killing another life.

so are you suggesting that saddam doesn't deserve the torture he dealt out to others, but he does deserve the death he dealt out to others?

	17-12-2003 01:13									#39
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I don't think he "deserves" either. I just wouldn't give that much of a **** if the Iraqi authorities kills him.

quote: there's no injunction against life being miserable or not. there is one against killing another life.

Injunction? From whom?

	17-12-2003 01:15									#40
	Tired of ads?

so far as i can tell, i haven't heard anything from the pope expressly prohibiting torture.

i have heard him numerous times proclaim the sanctity of life. i may not be a good catholic, but i'm trying: with luck, i may just sqeak into purgatory.

	17-12-2003 01:20									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: so far as i can tell, i haven't heard anything from the pope expressly prohibiting torture. i have heard him numerous times proclaim the sanctity of life. i may not be a good catholic, but i'm trying: with luck, i may just sqeak into purgatory.

I'm an atheist, not a Catholic. And Christ taught to turn the other cheek; i.e. revenge is bad. Whether its capital punishment or torture.

And torture is a pretty monstrous thing IMO. It's even more a form of pointless revenge than killing. It's just intended to make a person suffer and suffer. We shouldn't be taking tips from Uday.

	17-12-2003 01:23									#42
	Got spare money?

we wouldn't. we'd be letting his victims make their peace with him by conversing, at length, with him.

	17-12-2003 01:24									#43
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That's not what's generally considered torture.

	17-12-2003 01:29									#44
	Get a bigger avatar today!

if they slapped in in anger it would be.

	17-12-2003 04:03									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos As long is it is by hanging, I don't care where they do it. Hanging is traditionally the most dishonorable death. ...

I thought that was cruzifiction. But doing that could have some unwanted side effects

	17-12-2003 04:06									#46
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

According to Bush, Saddam deserves "the ultimate punishment".

	17-12-2003 04:47									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I got an idea: Send one part to a kurdish court, one part to Iraqi shiites, one to Iran and one to Israel. With the remains, feed the dogs.
But honestly, an Iraqi court should try him. Generally I'm against the death penalty, but after decades long, brutal dictatorships or genocides, people should make a clear cut.

	17-12-2003 05:57									#48
	Increase Your PM Length

I am against the death penalty in favor of abortion. I guess that makes me a liberal in this regard. However I find the lack of the death penalty in cases such as this to be immoral. The only real justification for a death penalty is deterrence. Because the death penalty is no longer consistently applied in Western civilization, it really has no deterrent value. But with war crimes and crimes against humanity, there is no real deterrence with respect to these crimes unless there is a death penalty.

I had not realized this before, but there can be no death penalty with either ad hoc war crimes tribunal authorized that by the UN or with the International Criminal Court. This essentially cripples these organizations and makes them functionally useless. All they can do is provide forum for a lot of hot air and no real penalty and therefore no real deterrence. They are a joke.

We have no choice but to leave the matter to the Iraqis once they have sovereignty. I still think this is a problem and that the Iraqis will probably not provide inadequate forum for both the Iran's and Kuwait's complaints. I suspect both those countries would like to sit as judges on any international war crimes tribunal for Saddam.

	17-12-2003 07:00									#49
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't believe in killing people. I believe they should liv to regret thier mistakes. Render him a deaf, blind and dumb quadraplegic. With good medical care he will have long time for regret.

	17-12-2003 08:28									#50
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Saddam has to die, and it will have to be the Iraqis that do it. What will the Iraqis think if we keep him alive, given all of the conspiracy theories flying around over there?

More to the point, that will end all doubt that we are there to stay, and will save lives of coalition troops, and the Iraqis who are working with us.

As for torture, with the exception of a very few sadists, I doubt anyone would gain any pleasure from that, especially since we have the time to get what information out of him that we need(as well as from the documents he had with him).

	17-12-2003 09:02									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed do you not see the inherent contradiction of supporting the death penalty while opposing abortion? or for those on the other side, opposing the death penalty and support abortion?

There IS no inherent contradiction. A person who recieves the death penalty is guilty of a crime (in theory ); a fetus is not (I don't see many historical examples of fetuses committing genocide ).

	17-12-2003 09:04									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

While I voted option #1, I support #3 as well

	17-12-2003 09:12									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The contradiction, Q cubed, is opposing the death penalty for the guilty and supporting it for the blameless unborn.

	17-12-2003 11:39									#54
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I guess I'm pro-death . Seeing as I am pro-death penalty and pro-abortion rights. Kill the bastards that are a danger to everyone around them (prisoners for other crimes don't deserve to die either and solitary confinement is considered cruel and unusual), and allow women to have the right to decide what stays in their body.

	17-12-2003 12:04									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That depends. If, as shawn does, you oppose the DP for procedural and not moral reasons, that has no bearing on your view on abortion.

	17-12-2003 17:23									#56
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: The contradiction, Q cubed, is opposing the death penalty for the guilty and supporting it for the blameless unborn

everyone has the right to life. no human has the right to abrogate another's right to life, no matter how inhuman the other person has behaved--unless you are willing to set yourself as superior to them, removing both their humanity away and your own.
let him live, but let his life be as miserable as can be. make him walk around iraq barefoot, visiting all the kurdish and shia towns filled with people that will curse the ground he walks on, who will hit him with curses and spittle and disdain. give him substinence level rations and a grueling pace.
killing him won't bring back the ones he killed. but forcing him to walk around and see the families he's ruined might make him regret some things he's done, if only because he'll have blisters and glass fragments on his feet.

	17-12-2003 17:25									#57
	Increase Your PM Length

but note, also, that i never said that the iraqis couldn't put him to death. i merely said that i couldn't bring myself to support it.

if my gf decided to get an abortion, i wouldn't be able to support her (that in itself could probably end the relationship, though~). if a friend of mine wanted to get an abortion, i wouldn't support her either. but ultimately, it's their decision, and the best anyone can do is try to convince them why it's wrong.

fetuses are still parasites.
saddam is still a murderer.

a mere human doesn't have the right to judge who lives and who dies.

	17-12-2003 19:55									#58
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If Iran did not want him so badly, I would suggest that he should be dealt with by the recently formed Iraqi tribunal. However.. Iran is "detaining" several top Al Qaeda operatives in its country and I would be happy to take all of them in exchange for Saddam, knowing that Saddam will not escape justice in Iran anyway.

	17-12-2003 21:26									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Why don't we allow the Iraqis to try him, and if they sentence him to death (did I say if?) it should be "death by the Iranians" in which we trade him to Iran for the Al Queso operatives and we can whack them.... I mean try them also.

Oh, and if Imran wants to start a Pro Death movement that supports the death penalty I want to sign up.

	17-12-2003 22:01									#60
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www FOr those of you who do not want to see Saddam dead for what he has done, their is some suriously wrong with you and you have messed up view of justice. You are just plain wrong.

What if I want him to experience something worse than death?