16-12-2003 17:17									#1
	Turn Saddam over to the Kurds! Suffering from ads?

I'm a person who is not opposed to the death penalty for moral reasons, but for procedural reasons. In the USA there are some strong indications that innocent people have been executed, and nobody seems to be working on clearing up those issues. (not a troll, background).

With Saddam Hussein, however, my argument falls apart. Can anybody here argue the man was not responible for egregious crimes against humanity? He should still get a fair trial. I would favor turning him over to the Kurds, they have a functioning government at this point. Or maybe to a council of Shia clerics. Sharia has been a legal code for over a millenia.

We could also just wait and turn him over to the future governement of Iraq in a couple of years. I just don't find that as just for the victims, his trial and highly probably execution would give them closure. If it was my wife and little girl, I sure as hell would want him dead (though you couldn't let me do, I believe torture is not legal).

I do not believe we should try him in the USA or in front of a war crimes tribunal. This is because of a) fairness to the Iraqi people b) procedural reasons and precedent c) international tribunals by and large now don't consider the death penalty. The International Court in the Hague only applies to crimes since 2002, so that's not the appropriate venue. Any thoughts.

	16-12-2003 17:31									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

For any court to try this man it must show jurisdiction. The Kurds do not have an internationally recognised state let alone a court with established rules governing its jurisdiction.

For good measure the US is not free simply to dispose of him by force majeur. He is best treated as a prisoner of war. I am not sure what, if any, extradition agreements are in place in respect of such persons but if there are any such it is for a state which believes its courts have jurisdiction and an extradition treaty with the US to make application to the apropriate US court.

	16-12-2003 17:35									#3
	Support Apolyton

I'm not sure chosing jurisdiction on the basis of possible sentence is very sensible. In any avent the Kurds do not have the death penalty

	16-12-2003 17:37									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Long trip...short rope...case closed.

	16-12-2003 17:59									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

whatever you think or feel about Saddam Hussein now, note that by wrath and hate you just set another comfortable basis for the next evil tyrant´s crimes.

	16-12-2003 18:16									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

As long is it is by hanging, I don't care where they do it. Hanging is traditionally the most dishonorable death. they better not give him a firing squad, historically the most honorable (I don't consider volontary suicide an execution).

	16-12-2003 18:26									#7
	Got spare money?

Freeze him and when the Kurds have their own state they can form a bilateral tribunal with the Iraqi state, then defrost him and let them try him.

	16-12-2003 18:34									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

We're giving him to the Iraqis. That should satisfy all but the Iranians.

	16-12-2003 18:49									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hussein should, and will, get the death penalty, IMO.
The trial will be in Iraq, and Kurds will have a part in it.

	16-12-2003 18:54									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Why should the Kurds have all the fun. The Shi'ites have reason enough to want him dead.

	16-12-2003 19:44									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Expel him to Iran or Israel

	16-12-2003 20:00									#12
	Tired of ads?

Actually, why the sudden in favor of the death penalty?
Because we're talking about a particular individual?
Sounds cruel and unusual to me.
After all, he's just a poor, tired, old man.

	16-12-2003 20:45									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Iraq is a non starter for the same reason as the Kurds. There is no established government and no court administering stable laws.

The front runner would be an internationally established court.

The US has always opposed a standing tribunal - being unwilling for its own leaders to answer before it.

But the US participated in Nuremburg so it would presumably go along with a one-off court established for the purpose.

How such a thing could ever preside over anything but a show trial I don't know.

Nuremburg was just a bunch of posturing and speechifying.

But maybe we have moved on. The court established for the Balkan cases has looked much better.

	16-12-2003 20:45									#14
	Support Apolyton

i'm against the death penalty, but if the iraqis want to execute him, it's their choice.

	16-12-2003 21:03									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader Iraq is a non starter for the same reason as the Kurds. There is no established government and no court administering stable laws.

They already have an interim government and they had already put together a tribunal.

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader The front runner would be an internationally established court.

No. An international court/tribunal is the dumbest alternative suggested so far.

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader The US has always opposed a standing tribunal - being unwilling for its own leaders to answer before it.

No, we have just wisened up to the fact that it would be as incompetent as the rest of the UN projects.

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader But the US participated in Nuremburg so it would presumably go along with a one-off court established for the purpose.

The US has stated from the beginning that it wants the Iraqis to try him. It committed his crimes against Iraqis in Iraq and they have jurisdiction.

	16-12-2003 21:11									#16
	Tired of ads?

Kofi Annan is now calling for an international tribunal - presumably to make the UN sound relevant.

There is supposed to be an Iraqi government in June. Leave Saddam in a cell until then to reflect on what he has done and what it has brought him, then hand him over to the new Iraqi government to try him in Iraq for crimes committed in Iraq against Iraqis. If they choose to hang him, so be it.

	16-12-2003 21:49									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Screw the U.N.
They're out of it.

	16-12-2003 21:55									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

i can't support the death penalty, not even in saddam's case. nor would i be able to in kim jong-il's.

consistency: life is precious, no matter whose. being opposed to abortion on the basis of it being life means that i ought to be--and am--opposed to euthanasia and capital punishment. (suicide i'm still trying to stop thinking as a valid end.)

march him around iraq in sandals. let him have to face every single person he's wronged. if they spit on him, or hit him, that is fine. they shouldn't be able to kill him.

	16-12-2003 22:04									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So torture is ok, Cubed? Fine. Torture Hussein.
I can get behind that idea.

	16-12-2003 22:09									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

as long as we keep our hands clean.

	16-12-2003 22:16									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

dp

Last edited by Q Cubed on 16-12-2003 at 22:23

	16-12-2003 22:18									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Anyone who believes Iraq is not currently under martial law should prudently avoid debating the issue with any of the occupying forces.

Making a start towards even a police force is proving troublesome.

It will be a month of Sundays or longer before a prosecuting authority or a judiciary can be thought of.

As for a system of law ...

	16-12-2003 22:42									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The Bushies have yet to OK a handover to Iraquis. The Iranians are filling complaints-but they are unlikely to get him on trial in Iran. The Kurdish idea is an utter no no.

	16-12-2003 22:43									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I can support the DP for crimes against humanity. I think that's about the only case.

	17-12-2003 00:09									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I am glad that Saddam will face the justice that he deserves for all the crimes that he has commited. People like him should be put to death. Their crimes are so horrible I can not believe why anyone would oppose putting such people to death.

The UN will never try him. IF we let the UN try him, we would be lucky if he got 20 years in prision. For a man who has killed thousands of people, the only punish that is appopriate is death. How can people say that he should not be put to death? What kind of crap is that? To me that is just plain sick and one of the greatest injustices in the world. I thought that no one would be opposed to putting Saddam to death, but I guess I was wrong.

What the hell is wrong with the UN? That is why I am glad the US has nothing to do with that stupid internation Tribunal, so we can watch as they let people who have commited some of the worst crimes in history to live out their lives? That is just plain stupid.

FOr those of you who do not want to see Saddam dead for what he has done, their is some suriously wrong with you and you have messed up view of justice. You are just plain wrong.

	17-12-2003 00:11									#26
	Got spare money?

if you support the death penalty, why are you against abortion?

consistency in my beliefs, which i've debated, is why i can't support the death penalty, not even for saddam.

	17-12-2003 00:15									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed if you support the death penalty, why are you against abortion? consistency in my beliefs, which i've debated, is why i can't support the death penalty, not even for saddam.

So you are going to let someone live who has maybe responsible for the death of millions live because you are opposed to death penalty. And you are opposed to the death penalty because you oppose aboration.

That is just, well I dont want to say the word. BUt come on. For a man who has killed maybe millions you would not put that person to death!?!?!?

	17-12-2003 00:15									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm morally opposed to the death penalty, but it's hard to get worked up about the fate of a genocidal manic. I don't support killing Saddam, but, frankly, I don't care all that much about what happens to that monster.

	17-12-2003 00:23									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: So you are going to let someone live who has maybe responsible for the death of millions live because you are opposed to death penalty. And you are opposed to the death penalty because you oppose aboration.

the cycle of death must end.
if we kill saddam, will it bring back to life the young women his son uday raped and killed?
if we kill saddam, will it bring back the sanity of the woman lawyer whose mind was destroyed because she had the gall to defend someone against saddam?
if we kill saddam, will it bring back those servicemen who sacrificed themselves?

i am opposed to the death penalty because i believe every life is sacred, no matter whose, and what they chose to do with it. your life has as much of a right to exist as saddam's--the only difference is, you haven't used yours for evil. because everybody has a fundamental right to life--even murderers--and because we are ourselves only human, we should not be the ones meting out judgement.

babies deserve a right to sacred life. that is why i oppose abortion. the terminally ill should want to live. that is why i oppose euthanasia. and those that murder have a right to their sorry ass lives. that is why i oppose the death penalty.

besides, who said that the remainder of his days would be pleasant? hand him over to the families of those he tortured; let them torture him until the end of his days.

quote: That is just, well I dont want to say the word. BUt come on. For a man who has killed maybe millions you would not put that person to death!?!?!?

if i can oppose giving kim jong-il the death penalty, even if he's probably starved relatives i've never met and never will to death, i can surely do the same for saddam, who hasn't killed anybody i know.

	17-12-2003 00:26									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

do you not see the inherent contradiction of supporting the death penalty while opposing abortion?

or for those on the other side, opposing the death penalty and support abortion?