17-12-2003 07:48									#61
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I am very much against copyright for copyright's sake. Copyright is a tool that's supposed to encourage innovation. Claiming that copyrights longer than the ones mandated in the Berne Convention is ludicrous.

I don't think Berne has run out on any software, has it?

	17-12-2003 07:59									#62
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Yeah... I would love to see how some of these people's opinions would change if they were the one being ripped off

	17-12-2003 08:01									#63
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I download software. to Free Software and OSS. In fact, I am using Firebird on Linux right now

On a theoretical level, though, I can't see how you can copyright software, e.g. the executables. Sure, arguably you can copyright the source code, but the executables are compiled, and have no direct correspondence to the sources whatsoever.

	17-12-2003 08:02									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... I would love to see how some of these people's opinions would change if they were the one being ripped off

Don't forget some of us develop OSS software

	17-12-2003 08:05									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ming if you want to do it... your decision, but don't try to justify it. It is still theft, and it makes you a thief.

Is Ming renouncing capitalism?!

	17-12-2003 08:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I am very much against copyright for copyright's sake. Copyright is a tool that's supposed to encourage innovation. Claiming that copyrights longer than the ones mandated in the Berne Convention is ludicrous. I don't think Berne has run out on any software, has it?

The counter question is then, are software companies obliged to support any and all programs they have that are still under copyright?

	17-12-2003 08:17									#67
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What does that have to do with DL'ing software?

	17-12-2003 08:20									#68
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Are you going to answer my question or simply try to sidetrack?

If companies are obliged to support all the programs they published, failure to do so will mean that they give up the copyrights to the programs they no longer support.

	17-12-2003 08:33									#69
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ah, I see. Abandonware, or some such. However, sir, the thread is about stealing sw (and other things) by downloading it (them).

Tell me, just how much support does a musician need to provide after laying down the track?

And, just what does the lack of support for DOS 5 have to do with people downloading the latest PhotoShop, games, or other software?

So, it is you who are trying to take this into a sidetrack, yes?

	17-12-2003 10:30									#70
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quote: Paris Hilton

quote: she's an anorexic toff

as for dl stuff illegaly, Ive downloaded a game before. Butt it sucked and while it was downloading I had nothing to do, it took three days. I never did that again.

	17-12-2003 10:42									#71
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I'll buy most video games I want but I only buy 2-3 per year. I'll download or buy illegal copies of most music and movies though.

	17-12-2003 11:29									#72
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I buy the things I want. I don't download anything illegal.

	17-12-2003 11:31									#73
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quote: Is Ming renouncing capitalism?!

Only is Stalinism is considered true Communism .

	17-12-2003 13:18									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

I am currently trying to download Civ2 from ED2K networks. I dont think I'm doing anything wrong since I bought the original game in 1996 and again in 2000 after the original cd got too scratched. Now I have lost the one I bought in 2000 and I'm sure as hell not going to buy Civ2 a third time. Even if there is store somewhere that still sells it.
So I'm searching for civ2 ISO image. PM me I you want to help me, I can provide proof of the 2 cds I've bought.

	17-12-2003 14:15									#75
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I don't steal any of it. The only temptation I have to steal are music CDs and DVDs, because I hate spending the 5 minutes it takes to get all the damn security tape off of them.

	17-12-2003 14:43									#76
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Not only do I try to get all the free software I can, I also use a lot of free hardware taken from discarded computers. And free printer paper... rebate CDs... uh yeah it's great to live in a society as wasteful as the U.S. of A.

	17-12-2003 16:40									#77
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I don't.

No doubt that is partly influenced by the fact that I can afford to buy.

The reason I buy is a selfish one. I greatly enjoy good computer games, good films, good music etc. Such things will not be produced unless those involved expect to be able to sell what they make.

So I buy.

	17-12-2003 16:54									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The counter question is then, are software companies obliged to support any and all programs they have that are still under copyright?

Ain't that the truth. The old copyright laws simply don't do enough to protect the interests of consumers when it comes to software.

I take it you would disagree with a traditional civil disobedience campaign, Ming?

	17-12-2003 17:26									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... justify it all you want... it's still theft. If you were to get caught, you would be punished. So play your silly word games if it makes you feel better But it makes you a thief... subject to prosecution.

But not subject to prosecution of theft...

You'd be subject to prosecution as a copyright violator, or, recently... DMCA violator. Copyright law and the DMCA are worded in a radically different way than real property statutes, due to some of the reasons I've mentioned.

Everything, of course is relative...

Laws like those in Malaysia target infringing commercial use... and personal use is ignored. So your statement isn't universal.

I'd also say that, largely, a law without enforcement is merely advice. *chuckles*

	17-12-2003 17:50									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins But not subject to prosecution of theft...

But still illegal... It is still theft of intellectual property.

quote: Laws like those in Malaysia target infringing commercial use... and personal use is ignored. So your statement isn't universal.

Copyright law is an international law... whether somebody decides to enforce it or not doesn't change the law.

quote: I'd also say that, largely, a law without enforcement is merely advice. *chuckles*

So basically, you are claiming that as long as you can get away with something that is illegal, it's not really illegal...

Yeah.... It is still illegal

	17-12-2003 17:50									#81
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader I don't. No doubt that is partly influenced by the fact that I can afford to buy. The reason I buy is a selfish one. I greatly enjoy good computer games, good films, good music etc. Such things will not be produced unless those involved expect to be able to sell what they make. So I buy.

But if you don't test before you buy, how many lemons are you also supporting?

	17-12-2003 18:17									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ming But still illegal... It is still theft of intellectual property.

Nope... theft is a real property concept. As already mentioned, something needs to be taken, for there to be theft. Theft isn't mentioned in either chapter 5 of Title 17 or Section 2319 of Title 18. The term is just "copyright infringement"; a definition unto itself.

quote: Copyright law is an international law... whether somebody decides to enforce it or not doesn't change the law. So basically, you are claiming that as long as you can get away with something that is illegal, it's not really illegal... Yeah.... It is still illegal

Laws by their definition, require enforcement, if only intermittent enforcement. Personal use infringement just isn't prosecuted in Malaysia, at all... whether by an international body or otherwise... or a number of other territories. S.A., and bulgaria if I remember correctly.

	17-12-2003 18:20									#83
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Downloading music is not even copyright infringement, at least in Canada.

Che said it isn't in the US either.

So Ming, since downloading your favourite Humperdinck album is not illegal in either the US or Canada, what's your complaint?

If you want to say it's immoral, then we can start asking whether the whole copyright system is moral, and there the fun starts.

	17-12-2003 18:27									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Laws by their definition, require enforcement, if only intermittent enforcement. Personal use infringement just isn't prosecuted in Malaysia, at all... whether by an international body or otherwise... or a number of other territories. S.A., and bulgaria if I remember correctly.

Again... just because they are not enforced doesn't change the fact that there are laws in place.

Again... your logic implys that anything you can get away with is OK... It doesn't change the fact that doing so is illegal.

	17-12-2003 18:32									#85
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The copyright system was originally instituted to encourage people to create things that benefitted consumers. While it still does that it seems reasonable to ask whether or not there are some areas in which it does more harm than good, or should be modified.

That's a discussion worth having.

	17-12-2003 18:33									#86
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Downloading data is no more theft than eavesdroping on a conversation is.

	17-12-2003 18:35									#87
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I think Ming has been a moderator too long

Now go dl some stuff, Ming. Free your mind!

	17-12-2003 18:43									#88
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Whether the law needs to be changed is a whole different story... However, as it currently stands, it is illegal... and that's a fact. You can try to justify it all you want, but it's still against the law

	17-12-2003 18:45									#89
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quote: Do you Dl software illeagaly?

It's a well-known fact that software thieves can't spell.

The fact that the (intellectual) property is cloned rather than stolen outright (like hard goods) does not change the fact that ownership rights are violated through illegal D/Ls.

Software thieves have a wide variety of arguments to "justify" their actions, but the simple fact is that, by and large, they do it because they can get away with it. This is outlaw behavior, and no amount of sophistry can make it moral or ethical.

	17-12-2003 18:52									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Whether the law needs to be changed is a whole different story... However, as it currently stands, it is illegal... and that's a fact. You can try to justify it all you want, but it's still against the law

But downloading music is legal (although uploading it is not).

Are you condoning what the record companies assure us is piracy, even though it is perfectly legal?