19-12-2003 04:32									#1
	University cheating: ever done it? Put an end to popups!

I had a bad day today. I've been teaching a course this semester and a while back I caught one of the students copying from the internet in their essay. It's not hard to spot: basically when something makes sense it's 90% probable it's been nicked.

Given the varsity's tough new line on plagiarism I had to report it (My co-instructor has since discovered another two internet cheats).

Anyway, today I had to attend an official meeting to decide what to do. It's kind of a bind since I think the student should be punished, but it's going to turn out to be a more severe punishment than I wanted (due to rules beyond my control - I'll spare you the details) and the student is quite upset with the whole thing. I'm basically a kindly sort of bloke - I don't like dealing with life wrecking stuff.

Cheating has become an ever increasing plague since I started teaching seven years ago. Does it have something to do with this ridiculous grade point average thing? We don't have that in NZ and there is a lot less cheating there.

Anyone here been a cheat?

I sometimes wonder if some students feel that they will be left behind if they don't cheat. The tragedy is I don't think it helps students at all, since they could probably make a better job of it themselves, than cribbing some moronic rubbish off the internet.

	19-12-2003 04:34									#2
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It's hard to cheat in my courses.

	19-12-2003 04:35									#3
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nope

but a lot of my students have

Jon Miller

	19-12-2003 04:35									#4
	Re: University cheating: ever done it? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Agathon basically when something makes sense it's 90% probable it's been nicked.

Dang, you must teach some useless crap.

	19-12-2003 04:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni Dang, you must teach some useless crap.

It's more to do with the fact that it's punctuated properly and uses grammatically correct English than it is to do with the content.

	19-12-2003 04:37									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller nope but a lot of my students have Jon Miller

What are you teaching? It's pretty easy to catch cheats in my business thanks to Google.

	19-12-2003 04:39									#7
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i've sold some of my project code (CompSci) to people for money before, and done HW for people (essays, CompSci) for money, does that count?

as for cheating (ie, getting information i didnt have) not really.

	19-12-2003 04:40									#8
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pretty easy for me to (I teach Physics)

but the profs (nor I) don't really want to deal with it, so ignore it unless it is flagrant (like copying an entire test)

I almost went forward with it this last time (some student just kept talking in a test after I asked them to stop)

Jon Miller

	19-12-2003 04:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX i've sold some of my project code (CompSci) to people for money before, and done HW for people (essays, CompSci) for money, does that count? as for cheating (ie, getting information i didnt have) not really.

That's only cheating if the university prohibits selling your own work. The people who present that as their own work are definitely cheating.

There is nothing wrong with buying material as long as you reference it properly.

	19-12-2003 04:47									#10
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University students should not cheat. Uni students are too wimpy in ethics and general outlook on life. We are raising a nation of wimps. Cheaters should be expelled. I am not kidding.

	19-12-2003 04:53									#11
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Yeah, I've got the hardline on cheaters along with TCO. I'm in college now, and I would never consider cheating on anything, and I support the full boot-in-the-ass for cheaters.

	19-12-2003 04:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by TCO University students should not cheat. Uni students are too wimpy in ethics and general outlook on life. We are raising a nation of wimps. Cheaters should be expelled. I am not kidding.

What do you expect when we make cheaters president?

	19-12-2003 04:58									#13
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You know, I agree with you guys. We don't make the penalties stiff enough to deter cheaters. Thus, people like me have to be mean to people.

When I started university the penalty for intentional plagiarism was expulsion and being blacklisted by every university in the country. I can't think why the penalties have been reduced, unless it's the increased fees and competition amongst schools.

	19-12-2003 04:59									#14
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@ Sava.

Hell of a sig you have there. I have a soft spot for TJ. There's a man who knew how to treat African Americans.

	19-12-2003 05:03									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sava What do you expect when we make cheaters president?

Grow up. The "my big brother got away with it, so should I" is symptomatic of the lack of maturity. Honor is personal. Do the right thing, Sava. It doesn't matter about Bush or Clinton or any of that crap.

	19-12-2003 05:09									#16
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Grow up. The "my big brother got away with it, so should I" is symptomatic of the lack of maturity. Honor is personal. Do the right thing, Sava. It doesn't matter about Bush or Clinton or any of that crap.

Come on. Whatever your politics it was a good troll.

	19-12-2003 05:12									#17
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quote: Grow up. The "my big brother got away with it, so should I" is symptomatic of the lack of maturity. Honor is personal. Do the right thing, Sava. It doesn't matter about Bush or Clinton or any of that crap.

theres no such thing as honor amongst American youth, there's winning and losing. how you win is irrelevent, the fact is you won.

	19-12-2003 05:16									#18
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When will these people learn. Thesauruses were integrated into word processors FOR A REASON!!!! .

	19-12-2003 05:18									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us theres no such thing as honor amongst American youth, there's winning and losing. how you win is irrelevent, the fact is you won.

The problem is that the rules exist for a reason, which is so that we give employers reasonable confidence in a candidate's ability when they leave our schools.

Rampant cheating (among other things - dumbing down being one) threatens to undermine the credibility of university degrees.

Having said that, at least people who take "Topics in Plato's Metaphysics" aren't like Law students, many of whom actively seek to sabotage the prospects of other candidates by stealing papers and vandalizing reference books.

The worst thing is that some profs seem to encourage this behaviour because it encourages a cutthroat attitude.

	19-12-2003 05:20									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy When will these people learn. Thesauruses were integrated into word processors FOR A REASON!!!! .

That doesn't work. You've no idea how I hate thesauruses.

A student will write a perfectly reasonable paper and then hit the thesaurus to make it look "cleverer". The problem is that if you don't understand the words you are choosing, you end up with bizarre papers that don't make any sense at all.

The next time I come across one of these I'll post an extract for your amusement.

	19-12-2003 05:23									#21
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I notice a **** load of cheating going on in my uni.

I havent cheated yet. Either morality nor the fear of punishment would stop me, but I havent yet.... dunno why. I guess Im just an idiot.

	19-12-2003 06:26									#22
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quote: A student will write a perfectly reasonable paper and then hit the thesaurus to make it look "cleverer". The problem is that if you don't understand the words you are choosing, you end up with bizarre papers that don't make any sense at all.

Where does that sound familiar?

I was referring to dumbing it down to undergrad level... propositions A, B, C, etc....

	19-12-2003 06:33									#23
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quote: aren't like Law students, many of whom actively seek to sabotage the prospects of other candidates by stealing papers and vandalizing reference books. The worst thing is that some profs seem to encourage this behaviour because it encourages a cutthroat attitude.

Amen to that. My turn as a pre-law major ended really quickly when I realized that I couldn't ****ing stand the brown-nosing, conniving ****s that surrounded me.

	19-12-2003 07:00									#24
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"Does it have something to do with this ridiculous grade point average thing?"

Basically, yeah.

I would never "nick" an essay from an online source - that's just stupid. But would I let my eye wander over another student's test paper? Yes, I would. And I do. Especially tests that are obviously designed to cater to those who memorize facts rather than have a deep understanding of theories and concepts.

Essay / short answer tests are the best.

	19-12-2003 07:11									#25
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It's so disappointing. I work hard to help these people do their best, and then some still cheat. Despite what some people might think, most teachers like seeing students do well. And when you do the bizarre stuff I like doing, they really need help.

Last year the students had to do a class presentation, so I took each one for coffee and sat patiently with them on my own time, to make sure they did the best they could. This year I translated the most of Parmenides on my own time, just so they could save 20 bucks on a textbook.

Humph!

But there are always a few diamonds. Really bright people who are a joy to talk to - I suppose that makes up for it. At least I get to say I'm a professional youth corrupter.

	19-12-2003 07:14									#26
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I usually copy passages from the various texts I've read, and I often use the Internet to find a source for whatever topic I heard during the lectures, and for which I need to give a source.

Useless to say, I always reference the documents from which I cite. I have the further excuse that, being French, it is tolerated that I copy whole sentences from correct German rather than writing gibberish.

	19-12-2003 07:18									#27
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BTW, in Germany, there are several sites specializing in selling university papers. The most well know is called hausarbeite.de, because "Hausarbeit" means the paper of 15-20 pages every student has to write several times a year.

However, some teachers now do check if there has been plagiarism from this source.

	19-12-2003 07:20									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I usually copy passages from the various texts I've read, and I often use the Internet to find a source for whatever topic I heard during the lectures, and for which I need to give a source. Useless to say, I always reference the documents from which I cite. I have the further excuse that, being French, it is tolerated that I copy whole sentences from correct German rather than writing gibberish.

You're a good guy Spiff. Now if only all my students could learn the value of referencing.

	19-12-2003 07:20									#29
	Re: University cheating: ever done it? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I've been teaching a course this semester and a while back I caught one of the students copying from the internet in their essay. It's not hard to spot: basically when something makes sense it's 90% probable it's been nicked.

That is ironic considering that over 90% of internet sites reporting a given subject don't make sense.

Maybe the problem is worse than you thought, maybe most students' work is actually plagiarising off of the internet crackpots, you just don't realise it.

	19-12-2003 07:22									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch That is ironic considering that over 90% of internet sites reporting a given subject don't make sense.

That's true. This is why I warn people off using the internet. You wouldn't believe how many crackpots have sites related to my topics.

There are enough good ones around to cause trouble though.