19-12-2003 13:01									#1
	US Criticises French Headscarf Ban Enter the AD-FREE zone

I know that there is an old topic on this, but this is a new wrinkle.

quote: U.S. Has Misgivings About Chirac's Headscarves Stance Thu December 18, 2003 12:09 PM ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The State Department voiced misgivings on Thursday about French President Jacques Chirac's plan to bar the wearing of Islamic headscarves, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in French state schools. "(A) fundamental principle of religious freedom that we work for in many countries of the world, including on this very issue of headscarves, is that all persons should be able to practice their religion and their beliefs peacefully without government interference as long as they are doing so without provocation and intimidation of others in the society," the U.S. ambassador for international religious freedom said. "President Chirac is concerned to maintain France's principle of secularism and he wants that, as I think he said, not to be negotiable. Our hope is religious freedom would be a nonnegotiable as well," ambassador John Hanford told reporters when asked about the issue as he presented the State Department's annual report on religious freedom. "One Muslim leader said this is a secularism that excludes too much. We are very concerned that that not be the case," he added. "So we are going to watch this carefully and (it is) certainly an important concern." Chirac called on Wednesday for a law banning Islamic headscarves and other religious symbols in state schools, despite protests from Muslims in France and across the world. The French president said such defiance breached the landmark separation of church and state in 1905 and would heighten tensions in France's multicultural society, whose Muslim and Jewish populations are both the biggest of their kind in west Europe. In a televised speech after months of debate on the role of religion in French society which highlighted the difficulties of Muslim integration, Chirac urged parliament to pass the law before the next school year starts in September. The ban will extend to other religious symbols including Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses, but France's top Muslim representative said it mainly targeted Islam and would further alienate the country's five million Muslims.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=4016508

Don't know how it's any of the Bush administration's beeswax, but this does seem like a worthwhile argument. It illustrates the difference in our views of the separation of church and state.

In short, France views its government's role as promoting secularism, while the US views its government's role much more narrowly -- refraining from doing anything that establishes a particular religion. Government promoting secular society is anathema to the majority of Americans, while the French probably cringe every time they hear "God bless America" coming from any American president's lips.

How did these rather subtle differences in approach come to such differing opinions about this, when both of our countries are children of the Enlightenment? Maybe Europe as a whole would take a more French line. But I guess I'm partial to the non-establishment clause, since it has worked so well for us.

Anyway, it would seem that the US would be more hospitable to Muslims than France, although France probably has a much higher %-age of Muslims.

Edit: I note that this is a local issue in the US versus a national issue in France. The headscarve might be banned in some US schools in some situations too.

	19-12-2003 14:22									#2
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What does not appear in the report is that the arab community does not equal the muslim community. Many arabs are not religious to the point to fight or even support the headscarf, and many other are not religious at all. In addition, the subject is contraversial in the religious muslim community.

	19-12-2003 14:24									#3
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Double post

Last edited by DAVOUT on 19-12-2003 at 15:20

	19-12-2003 19:44									#4
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quote: Don't know how it's any of the Bush administration's beeswax,

Just as our death penalty is France's beeswax . Countries, especially western democracies, will tell each other what they disagree with.

Anyway, this is a good thing to disagree with, IMO.

	19-12-2003 20:03									#5
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quote: Just as our death penalty is France's beeswax

Good point.

quote: In addition, the subject is contraversial in the religious muslim community.

I don't think it's that controversial. At least not outside France. Mainly, among the muslim religious it seems like a question among scarves, rather than a question of whether to wear a scarf or not.

And what's the distinction between Arab and non-Arab muslims?

	19-12-2003 20:07									#6
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quote: And what's the distinction between Arab and non-Arab muslims?

Well Arab muslims usually clash with non-Arab muslims. The Arab ones believe they should be in charge of the community, even if they are the minority of it. At least as far as I've observed.

	19-12-2003 20:21									#7
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The whole obsession with secularism in France has something to do with a long and painful history. France, "the eldes daughter of the Church" tried to escape the clutches of the catholic Church for a long time, and was only successful at it under the 3rd Republic, with 20 years of constant struggles between both sides.
School was an especially important battlefield between both sides. In the end, a status quo was found, and private schools (up to 20% of the total students) were allowed to be religious. Everytime a government tries to change the status quo in one sense or another, you can bet the education minister will be driven out by the unrest.

The reasons why the French views of separation of Church and State are so different with the US' (or of most other European countries' for that matter) comes from this history specific to us.

The real question that is asked by the Islamic Scarf is "Is school supposed to be a place where all religions are free to be expressed, or is school supposed to be a place devoid of religious proselytism?"
Chirac considers schools ought to be devoid of religious proselytism, and our lengthy debate has shown there are good arguments for each side.

I personally support Chirac on this one. I share with him a deep concern about seeing our country becoming more and more torn apart between radicalizing communities. Now, if we don't do anything else to promote integration, this law will end up being counterproductive. However, if we have a real encompassing program to promote integration, this law will be a complement to it.

	19-12-2003 20:26									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't think it's that controversial. At least not outside France. Mainly, among the muslim religious it seems like a question among scarves, rather than a question of whether to wear a scarf or not.

The argument raised by the partisans of the headscarf is that it is a religious obligation. I have no opinion on that point, but hight muslims authorities contradict it. And considering that the minority making of the headscarf an obligation also claims that the religious laws prevail on the civil laws, it is not without interest to check first if it is really a religious obligation.

If it is not, as it seems to be the case, the forbidding of the headscarf is not a big issue. If it is a religious obligation, and if this obligation is associated with the contention that the religious laws prevail on the civil laws, it must be rigorously forbidden.

	19-12-2003 20:28									#9
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What Davout said

	19-12-2003 20:29									#10
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quote: Well Arab muslims usually clash with non-Arab muslims. The Arab ones believe they should be in charge of the community, even if they are the minority of it. At least as far as I've observed.

OK, so how does this fit into the headscarves question?

	19-12-2003 20:31									#11
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"Chirac considers schools ought to be devoid of religious proselytism,"

yeah, but is wearing a head scarf proselytism?

The ruling also bans Kippahs, worn by Orthodox and some Conservative Jews. I can tell you with great assurance that the wearing of such has NOTHING to do with proselytism.

	19-12-2003 20:35									#12
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quote: I don't think it's that controversial. At least not outside France. Mainly, among the muslim religious it seems like a question among scarves, rather than a question of whether to wear a scarf or not.

Wait...are you saying that within Islamic society the question of head coverings is NOT controversial???

	19-12-2003 20:35									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT And considering that the minority making of the headscarf an obligation also claims that the religious laws prevail on the civil laws, it is not without interest to check first if it is really a religious obligation. If it is not, as it seems to be the case, the forbidding of the headscarf is not a big issue. If it is a religious obligation, and if this obligation is associated with the contention that the religious laws prevail on the civil laws, it must be rigorously forbidden.

I understand that some muslims dont require the wearing of the headscarf, and some muslims who do believe in the superiority of Sharia over civil law. Arent there SOME muslims who believe in civil law, but who also believe in the obligation to wear the headscarf?


Personal note - I was once a substitute teacher in a local public school. Some girls wore headscarves - I was happy they were at a public school, where they would be taught American values and western culture, and NOT at a Saudi funded muslim school = wear whatever you want, public school is where you will be integrated.

	19-12-2003 20:39									#14
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quote: Wait...are you saying that within Islamic society the question of head coverings is NOT controversial???

No, I'm not saying that. Mainly the question seems to be about whether a modest scarf is all that is required or if something more is required, like a hijab, manteau, abaya, etc. The exception to this is Turkey.

	19-12-2003 20:39									#15
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quote: Originally posted by orange Wait...are you saying that within Islamic society the question of head coverings is NOT controversial???

In the US there are plenty of muslim women who DONT wear head scarves - but i cant imagine them supporting a move to BAN headscarves in public schools - either theyre more friendly to more conservative forms of Islam than moderate muslims in France are (which I doubt) or they have absorbed the American view of religious tolerance.

Note that in NW London some liberal Jews opposed the establishment of an eruv, a ritual boundary that allows Orthodox Jews to avoid certain Sabbath restricitions, an opposition i think very unlikely from Reform Jews in the US. Its a different view of religion and public life, more than anything else.

	19-12-2003 20:42									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The reasons why the French views of separation of Church and State are so different with the US' (or of most other European countries' for that matter) comes from this history specific to us.

OK, fine. And the reasons we have a different view of the death penalty than y'all do has to do with history specific to the US - now could y'all STFU about it and allow the US as a fellow democracy to run OUR justice system as we see fit, without attempting to prevent extradition of fugitives, etc?

	19-12-2003 20:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark yeah, but is wearing a head scarf proselytism?

Every clearly seeable religious symbol (what was called "ostentatoire" before, and is called "ostensible" now, don't ask me for the nuance) is a statement of someone's religious belonging, and thus of someone's belief that his religion is the true one.
Even if the wearer of the scarf/kippa doesn't intend to do so, this statement is made by his garment.

Now, there is more to the scarf than the religious debate about it. One of the reasons to wear the scarf is religion, however, it's not the only one.
Teenage Crisis is another good one, and the two girls who started this year's round of headaches have been raised in an atheistic Jewish household, for example.
Another very existing reason in the ghettoes has to do with the vomitingly machist culture among the alienated youth. For a great many people, a girl is either a slut or someone who'll remain virgin until marriage. For many girls, the Scarf is a way to protect herself from the boys, a permanent reminder she's not a slut. This is awkwardly similar to the reasons why the Scarf was a progress during the dark ages

	19-12-2003 20:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark OK, fine. And the reasons we have a different view of the death penalty than y'all do has to do with history specific to the US - now could y'all STFU about it and allow the US as a fellow democracy to run OUR justice system as we see fit, without attempting to prevent extradition of fugitives, etc?

Why should we? Seeing you're whining about the head scarf, I fail to see why we should stop whining about the death penalty

	19-12-2003 20:52									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Why should we? Seeing you're whining about the head scarf, I fail to see why we should stop whining about the death penalty

You dont understand what "Ok, fine" means?

	19-12-2003 20:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I understand that some muslims dont require the wearing of the headscarf, and some muslims who do believe in the superiority of Sharia over civil law. Arent there SOME muslims who believe in civil law, but who also believe in the obligation to wear the headscarf?

Republican atheists are prepared to accept one Islam, as a clearly defined religion, accepting the rule of the civil laws. That implies a definition by muslim authorities of what this religion consists of. If there are several Islams, as there are several Christian religions, each must build its own clear and complete definition, and if one of them includes the primacy of the religious laws, it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

	19-12-2003 20:57									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Every clearly seeable religious symbol (what was called "ostentatoire" before, and is called "ostensible" now, don't ask me for the nuance) is a statement of someone's religious belonging, and thus of someone's belief that his religion is the true one. Even if the wearer of the scarf/kippa doesn't intend to do so, this statement is made by his garment.

So if a Jewish or muslim kid refuses to eat pork, thats an assertion of the truth of his religion? (BTW, where i live the school cafeterias highlight foods that have pork, for the benefit of those who dont eat it, which helps Princess of the Mark)

Also many jews and muslims require girls to wear long sleeves as a religious obligation of modesty - is that to be banned too? Or is that acceptable because christians and atheists wear long sleeves, but not headscarves.

	19-12-2003 20:58									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Republican atheists are prepared to accept one Islam, as a clearly defined religion, accepting the rule of the civil laws. That implies a definition by muslim authorities of what this religion consists of. If there are several Islams, as there are several Christian religions, each must build its own clear and complete definition, and if one of them includes the primacy of the religious laws, it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

what if islam is not organized into formal sects the way christianity is?

	19-12-2003 21:00									#23
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quote: If there are several Islams, as there are several Christian religions, each must build its own clear and complete definition, and if one of them includes the primacy of the religious laws, it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

This sounds very authoritarian to American ears. The government is unable to authorize such stuff. It's none of the government's goddamn business.

	19-12-2003 21:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So if a Jewish or muslim kid refuses to eat pork, thats an assertion of the truth of his religion? (BTW, where i live the school cafeterias highlight foods that have pork, for the benefit of those who dont eat it, which helps Princess of the Mark)

It is different, because it is not a permanent assertion of his religious belonging, that can be seen and understood by anybody at school.

Now, if the kid wore a T-shirt where it's clearly written "I don't eat pork cause I am Muslim/Jewish", that T-shirt would be banned.

Something of no small importance, that gets widely overlooked, is that any obvious sign of political belonging gets banned as well.

	19-12-2003 21:01									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT , it will not be authorized, because it is not compatible with the Republic.

It will not be authorized - geepers kreepers, thats the key isnt it, what some bureaucrat authorizes or doesnt? If i were you, Id be more concerned with how to actually integrate 5 million French muslims into society, including most especially those who are now adopting more conservative forms of Islam. And I doubt very much that pushing them out of the public schools is the way to accomplish that.

	19-12-2003 21:03									#26
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What is the difference between the beliefs that are expressed by day-to-day fashion and those expressed by a headscarf? Are goths excluded from wearing goth clothes in French schools? Do these kids wear uniforms?

	19-12-2003 21:04									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is different, because it is not a permanent assertion of his religious belonging, that can be seen and understood by anybody at school. Now, if the kid wore a T-shirt where it's clearly written "I don't eat pork cause I am Muslim/Jewish", that T-shirt would be banned. Something of no small importance, that gets widely overlooked, is that any obvious sign of political belonging gets banned as well.

what if somebody asks my kid why she doesnt eat pork, and she says cause shes jewish? And in fact what if everybody at school understands that most people who dont eat pork refrain for religious reasons? OTOH, what if some ignorant people think that people who wear headscarves are NOT doing it for religious reasons, but to keep warm, or because theyve lost their hair due to chemotherapy - does that mean since its NOT universally understood its acceptable?

	19-12-2003 21:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What is the difference between the beliefs that are expressed by day-to-day fashion and those expressed by a headscarf? Are goths excluded from wearing goth clothes in French schools? Do these kids wear uniforms?

Goths aren't excluded from wearing their clothes. However, the scarf debate revived the long-dead idea of school uniforms, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility we use school uniforms in the distant future.

	19-12-2003 21:10									#29
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark what if islam is not organized into formal sects the way christianity is?

Interesting question, because it is the case.

The state asked the community interested to organize a representative body empowered to handle all relations with him.

This was recently done for the Islam, and we expect it to contribute to a significant improvement in the reciprocal understanding between muslims and non-muslims (who have already reach that point).

	19-12-2003 21:12									#30
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yeah like you did long ago for the Jews, with the result that when some (liberal) friends of mine went to Paris they had trouble finding a Synagogue that they felt comfortable with (IE one where men and women had equal roles) Its a little better in UK,IIUC, but not all that much.