20-12-2003 02:36									#91
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BTW I don't think I've ever heard of any other european country having a problem with that except France. How come?

	20-12-2003 02:37									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The whole obsession with secularism in France has something to do with a long and painful history. France, "the eldes daughter of the Church" tried to escape the clutches of the catholic Church for a long time, and was only successful at it under the 3rd Republic, with 20 years of constant struggles between both sides. School was an especially important battlefield between both sides. In the end, a status quo was found, and private schools (up to 20% of the total students) were allowed to be religious. Everytime a government tries to change the status quo in one sense or another, you can bet the education minister will be driven out by the unrest. The reasons why the French views of separation of Church and State are so different with the US' (or of most other European countries' for that matter) comes from this history specific to us. The real question that is asked by the Islamic Scarf is "Is school supposed to be a place where all religions are free to be expressed, or is school supposed to be a place devoid of religious proselytism?" Chirac considers schools ought to be devoid of religious proselytism, and our lengthy debate has shown there are good arguments for each side. I personally support Chirac on this one. I share with him a deep concern about seeing our country becoming more and more torn apart between radicalizing communities. Now, if we don't do anything else to promote integration, this law will end up being counterproductive. However, if we have a real encompassing program to promote integration, this law will be a complement to it.

"promoting integration" just sounds wrong and dirty.

must be that damn american individualism.

	20-12-2003 02:48									#93
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ok, so replace head scarf with total facial covering then :P

	20-12-2003 03:01									#94
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Yavoon, I am glad that someone else here gets it.

The French have this extreme pride in their culture that is obsessive. Even the French must acknowledge this as it it obvious to any who are not French. So long as France is ethnicly "pure" this excessive "pride" does not lead to oppression of ethnic minorities. But to the extent they do exist in France, either the French will have to change their ethnic pride or the ethnic minorities will have to change their ethnicity because the two cannot coexist.

	20-12-2003 03:09									#95
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This from a country where a woman (an attractive one at that) was arrested for selling a vibrator.

	20-12-2003 03:10									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Yavoon, I am glad that someone else here gets it. The French have this extreme pride in their culture that is obsessive.

Change "French" to Americans, and the statement is still true.

What we need are places where people have mild contempt for their country, like Britain.

	20-12-2003 03:13									#97
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Ned, I really doubt it is about being ethnically pure: the French understand themselves as a society that is based on common values: everyone that accepts these basic values should be accepted in the society. One of this basic values is the strict separation of religion and state: and this is the topic discussed now. Their football team that they've been pretty proud of doesn't really indicate fear of losing "ethnical purety".

	20-12-2003 03:20									#98
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon "promoting integration" just sounds wrong and dirty. must be that damn american individualism.

The state needs to actively promote integration: we haven't been doing this during the last decades and what we got are paralel societies where children are raised without learning the language properly and therefor deprived of many of the freedoms our societies grant. Just leave these people behind and let them do the dirty and badly-paid jobs would be much more convenient, of course.

	20-12-2003 03:35									#99
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Well, it sounds like we will never hear Chirac say
- "God Bless France"
or according to my unexisting knowledge in French
- "Dieu sacre France") ??????? (Spiffor may correct me)

Face covering muslim cloths are banned in Swedish schools too, according to a recent statement buy the Swedish board of education. The reason for this is that the teacher needs to see the face of the pupil for numerous reasons:
1) to identify the pupil, so that she doesn't send her big sister or best friend to a hard exam (and several similar reasons)
2) to see the facial expressions of the pupil, which adds a lot to the communication

Hair covering muslim clothes are OK, though.

	20-12-2003 03:37									#100
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Mazarin, you make France sound like a totolitarian society that exercises thought control on people. To Americans, this kind of thinking is frightening. We are ethnicly diverse. We take pride in that.

	20-12-2003 03:51									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Mazarin, you make France sound like a totolitarian society that exercises thought control on people. To Americans, this kind of thinking is frightening. We are ethnicly diverse. We take pride in that.

What does make France appear like a totalitarian society to you? Its not about ethnics: its about common values. This is something that America as a great immigration country was based upon -at least that's what I thought. People were welcome to come to the US if they respected the values written down in the constitution and were willing to live according to them.
The strict separation between religion and state seems to be one of the French core values (something I'd like to be adopted in Germany, too) -one can argue that forbidding headscarf in schools goes too far with that (I'm torn on that one, as I already stated above), but claiming its about ethnical purety is complete bs.

	20-12-2003 04:01									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin The state needs to actively promote integration: we haven't been doing this during the last decades and what we got are paralel societies where children are raised without learning the language properly and therefor deprived of many of the freedoms our societies grant. Just leave these people behind and let them do the dirty and badly-paid jobs would be much more convenient, of course.

why would that be more convenient?

freedom includes the freedom to fail.

	20-12-2003 04:04									#103
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Mazarin, I think you truly misunderstand America. We do not require everyone to agree on certain core principles in order to enjoy full status as citizens. The type of uniform thinking and behavior that France insists upon is truly alien to the United States.

	20-12-2003 04:09									#104
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark STANDARDIZED - FACTORY - UNIFORM Dear Freedom-minded Brits, Norwegians, Finns, Swiss, Poles, etc - be VERY careful what you're commiting yourselves to.

Yes, these words are politically incorrect; I see that you get it.

Of course, in the US the children are individually educated, and your are pleased with excellent results. Here, we have only a mass education system in which the individual have to adapt themselves to the limitations due to the life in society. There is no room for medieval behaviours hiding political objectives.

But the freedom enjoyed by islamists in the US is likely known by them, and they certainly appreciate to be welcome by you if they ever decided to emigrate.

	20-12-2003 04:23									#105
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yavoon,

quote: freedom includes the freedom to fail

Sure, but I don't want children to be deprived of the chances to succeed because of the family they were born into. That's why we have a madantory and free school system; that's why we help students from poor families during their university studies. Don't tell me that blacks in the US are overrepresented in prisons due to all the freedoms they've had.

Ned,

quote: Mazarin, I think you truly misunderstand America. We do not require everyone to agree on certain core principles in order to enjoy full status as citizens. The type of uniform thinking and behavior that France insists upon is truly alien to the United States.

So, what is the US society based upon? What values is the US trying to spread all over the world? If I go to the US, apply for citizenship later and claim, I think it should be governed by a Saddam-type dictator and the sharia
is the only law I'm willing to follow, will I be accepted as clearly as someone showing that he understood and respected US constitution and its laws?

	20-12-2003 04:25									#106
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quote: will I be accepted as clearly as someone showing that he understood and respected US constitution and its laws

Probably will.

	20-12-2003 04:28									#107
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Well seriously, here is the oath of citizenship for the US:

quote: The Oath of Citizenship I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature.

	20-12-2003 04:31									#108
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US society is based on tolerance and, more, affirmative action.

	20-12-2003 04:33									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin yavoon, Sure, but I don't want children to be deprived of the chances to succeed because of the family they were born into. That's why we have a madantory and free school system; that's why we help students from poor families during their university studies. Don't tell me that blacks in the US are overrepresented in prisons due to all the freedoms they've had. Ned, So, what is the US society based upon? What values is the US trying to spread all over the world? If I go to the US, apply for citizenship later and claim, I think it should be governed by a Saddam-type dictator and the sharia is the only law I'm willing to follow, will I be accepted as clearly as someone showing that he understood and respected US constitution and its laws?

freedom isnt acceptance.

and opportunity and coercion are different things.

	20-12-2003 04:37									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Mazarin, I think you truly misunderstand America. We do not require everyone to agree on certain core principles in order to enjoy full status as citizens. The type of uniform thinking and behavior that France insists upon is truly alien to the United States.

Polygamous Mormons might disagree, Ned. Besides which, it isn't as if the United States reached this supposed state of perfection without having had anti-Catholic laws, and apartheid. Gosh, what was the Civil Rights movement about? Astonishing that it took nearly a hundred years to reach the conclusion that perhaps their citizens of African origin might not be getting the same deal as caucasian ones, despite having fought a civil war over it.

And please- don't give me a boring lecture on Australia's history, because I'm not Australian and I'm perfectly aware of it.

Everybody can crow about how wonderful their own country is, but when our houses are made even partially out of glass, then we shouldn't throw stones.

	20-12-2003 04:39									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I don't understand how americans can pretend they promote freedom of religion when they say 'God bless America' in official statements. Um... that's part of freedom of religion. Why should I tell the President he can't express his religious beliefs? It's his speech, he has the freedom to say his belief. Freedom of religion.

On the back of all US banknotes, even the new ones, is written :*In God we trust*. This is not said by an individual expressing his personnal beliefs, it is the state forcing the belief in a god in the throat of all American atheists.

That is the way the believers respect the freedom of religion of the non believers.

By the way, I must add that if I were a believer I would be offended too that the name of my god be mentionned on a banknote. I would not be surprised to see that mentionned as well on the DU shells or on the fragmentation bombs.

	20-12-2003 04:49									#112
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Polygamous Mormons might disagree, Ned. Besides which, it isn't as if the United States reached this supposed state of perfection without having had anti-Catholic laws, and apartheid. Gosh, what was the Civil Rights movement about? Astonishing that it took nearly a hundred years to reach the conclusion that perhaps their citizens of African origin might not be getting the same deal as caucasian ones, despite having fought a civil war over it. And please- don't give me a boring lecture on Australia's history, because I'm not Australian and I'm perfectly aware of it. Everybody can crow about how wonderful their own country is, but when our houses are made even partially out of glass, then we shouldn't throw stones.

Molly, I have no disagreement with this post. We progressed and still much to do on relations with minorities of all kinds. But our ideals today are to integrate, not to segregate.

	20-12-2003 04:51									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The wearing of scarves is viewed as a provocation and intimidation Only in France. quote: I don't understand how americans can pretend they promote freedom of religion when they say 'God bless America' in official statements. Um... that's part of freedom of religion. Why should I tell the President he can't express his religious beliefs? It's his speech, he has the freedom to say his belief. Freedom of religion.

No, that's official endorsement of religion (when he's speaking as the President).

And it's wrong.

	20-12-2003 04:53									#114
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No, that's official endorsement of religion (when he's speaking as the President). And it's wrong.

it is not an official endorsement of rleigion. its an official endorsing religion.

	20-12-2003 04:56									#115
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quote: anti-Catholic laws

Anti-Catholic laws? To what are you referring?

	20-12-2003 04:56									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, thanks for your thoughtful reply (Krazy Horse can learn something from you.)

Too much tolerance for idiocy is not a virtue.

It's interesting that many of the right-wing USers here give me respect, yet they seem to laugh at you.

Hmmm...

	20-12-2003 04:56									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But our ideals today are to integrate

According to Yavoon :

quote: "promoting integration" just sounds wrong and dirty.

I have to (reluctantly) recongnize that Ned is closer to the French policy than Yavoon.

	20-12-2003 04:58									#118
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quote: It's interesting that many of the right-wing USers here give me respect, yet they seem to laugh at you.

Don't misinterpret the silence.

	20-12-2003 04:59									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ned ...But our ideals today are to integrate, ...

great:top:...though it sounds wrong and dirty

must be that damn european individualism

edit: crosspost
and DanS, thanks for the US Oath of Citizenship, I really started to think your Constitution was irrelevant.

	20-12-2003 05:01									#120
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon it is not an official endorsement of rleigion. its an official endorsing religion.

Which, when the official is working in his official position, is an official endorsement of religion. Duh.

You might not have any way to stop it (I wouldn't consider making it illegal for a pol to invoke deities in his favour), but it's wrong, and I'm very happy that most Canadian politicians avoid it.