21-12-2003 09:53									#271
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think in general we've mangled a lot of the intent of the writers of the constitution. I think its also pretty safe to say that by freedom of religion they meant freedom of the different christian denominations. not freedom of paganism or aetheism. Actually that is not true. Madison, for one, did not restrict his freedom to simply Christians.

some ppl were more enlightened than others. I feel that u provided a counter example w/o actually doing anything to the integrity of my point. sort of a misdirection.

I dont appreciate it.

	21-12-2003 09:55									#272
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: some ppl were more enlightened than others. I feel that u provided a counter example w/o actually doing anything to the integrity of my point. sort of a misdirection. I dont appreciate it.

Don't appreciate it then. Not like I care. Madison is called the 'father of the Constitution' so saying the writers of the Constitution meant this while Madison disagrees is a funny statement to make.

	21-12-2003 10:54									#273
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: some ppl were more enlightened than others. I feel that u provided a counter example w/o actually doing anything to the integrity of my point. sort of a misdirection. I dont appreciate it. Don't appreciate it then. Not like I care. Madison is called the 'father of the Constitution' so saying the writers of the Constitution meant this while Madison disagrees is a funny statement to make.

yet its true. the supreme court has severely liberalized the constitution and its implementation over the past 250 years.

	21-12-2003 11:02									#274
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: yet its true. the supreme court has severely liberalized the constitution and its implementation over the past 250 years.

That comment demonstrates a profound ignorance of American history.

	21-12-2003 11:04									#275
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes, Kirn. It is, at the very least, incredibly simplistic.

	21-12-2003 11:14									#276
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: yet its true. the supreme court has severely liberalized the constitution and its implementation over the past 250 years.

I think yavoon has a bit of a trouble with concepts like "time", too

	21-12-2003 11:15									#277
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Very well, I stand corrected. I do think, however, that 'In God we Trust' is probably the result of the undeniable fact that the vast majority of early American settlers and leaders were Christian. I don't think "sneaked in" is really a fair way to describe that reference.

"In God We Trust" in our currency (as with the addition of "under God" to the pledge) is a result of the paranoia of the 50's to signify that the US gov't wasn't a bunch of godless commies. It has nothing to do with the the settlers or leaders of the early US.

	21-12-2003 11:20									#278
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: yet its true. the supreme court has severely liberalized the constitution and its implementation over the past 250 years. I think yavoon has a bit of a trouble with concepts like "time", too

yah it was my head rounding off

	21-12-2003 11:20									#279
	Got spare money?

pbbbt. yeh, everyone knows judicial activism didn't really start in earnest until Dred Scott.

	21-12-2003 11:23									#280
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Yes, Kirn. It is, at the very least, incredibly simplistic.

I don't see what's wrong with his assertion. For instance, the first Congresses funded religious missions for Amerinidians, which is obviously anathema to the current SCOTUS' interpretation of the Establishment Clause.

	21-12-2003 11:24									#281
	Got spare money?

quote: "In God We Trust" in our currency (as with the addition of "under God" to the pledge) is a result of the paranoia of the 50's to signify that the US gov't wasn't a bunch of godless commies. It has nothing to do with the the settlers or leaders of the early US.

I stand corrected again.

	21-12-2003 11:26									#282
	Suffering from ads?

quote: I don't see what's wrong with his assertion. For instance, the first Congresses funded religious missions for Amerinidians, which is obviously anathema to the current SCOTUS' interpretation of the Establishment Clause.

You answered your own question. The SCOTUS hasn't liberalized the Constitution. In that aspect it has constrained it.

	21-12-2003 11:30									#283
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Whoha pbbbt. yeh, everyone knows judicial activism didn't really start in earnest until Dred Scott.

Marbury v Madison to be exact.

	21-12-2003 11:32									#284
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Still the court did nothing for 50 years after that, hence "in earnest" :P

	21-12-2003 11:34									#285
	Suffering from ads?

The common use of "liberalizing" implies liberalizing society, not the constraints on gov't.

	21-12-2003 11:38									#286
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: The common use of "liberalizing" implies liberalizing society, not the constraints on gov't.

We are talking about the Constitution here. Liberalizing and constraining in that context refers to the government not society.

	21-12-2003 11:43									#287
	Put an end to popups!

Dude Imran you've been up too long.

Liberalizing the foundation of a gov't means constraining the gov't into a liberal path.

	21-12-2003 11:46									#288
	Tired of ads?

The Bill of Rights for instance were extremely liberal ideas. That's the sort of thing Locke et al. were advoacting.

	21-12-2003 11:47									#289
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Still the court did nothing for 50 years after that, hence "in earnest" :P

That's entirely untrue. There were at least five huge court decisions in that time period that, though not particularly well known, had huge consequences for the US.

Dartmouth v. Woodward (1812)
Fletcher v. Peck (1812)
McCullough v. Maryland (1819)
Cohens v. Virginia (1821)
Gibbons v. Ogden (1824)

All of these cases expanded or affirmed federal power.

	21-12-2003 11:50									#290
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: The Bill of Rights for instance were extremely liberal ideas. That's the sort of thing Locke et al. were advoacting.

That really has nothing to do with SCOTUS liberalizing the Constitution, though.

	21-12-2003 11:50									#291
	Remove this text

It has to do with liberalizing the Constitution.

	21-12-2003 11:52									#292
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Liberalizing the foundation of a gov't means constraining the gov't into a liberal path.

Have you been drinking? Or using different defintions of liberal?

Liberalizing means freeing. Liberalizing the Constitution means freeing it from its text. A liberal reading of the Constitution means not adhering too strongly to the text.

quote: The Bill of Rights for instance were extremely liberal ideas.

That has nothing to do with liberalizing it.

	21-12-2003 11:52									#293
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Liberalizing the Constitution means making the Constitution more liberal!

	21-12-2003 11:54									#294
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wait, screwed up. Fletcher v. Peck and Dartmouth v. Woodward are about property rights and contracts. However, they are still important.

	21-12-2003 11:55									#295
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes... more free from the text. Not politically liberal.

When used that way, liberal means freeing from strict adherence (ie, a liberal reading)

	21-12-2003 11:59									#296
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It makes much more sense if he means politically liberal. Which is why the assertion came out of an argument about the establishment clause initially meaning only among Christians (which I agree with yavoon with BTW - hence my example of religious missions to heathens).

	21-12-2003 12:09									#297
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Which is why the assertion came out of an argument about the establishment clause initially meaning only among Christians

A. It wasn't a discussion on the Establishment Clause, but Free Exercise Clause. He says that:

I think its also pretty safe to say that by freedom of religion they meant freedom of the different christian denominations. not freedom of paganism or aetheism.

B. It also seems false. If you look at the history of the 1st Amendment (the 19 versions before the one which was settled on) and the debates over it, the debates seemed to center on a freedom of conscious for all, not just Christians.

C. If he meant more political liberal, then he used the terminology wrong as well.

	21-12-2003 12:16									#298
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ok he was wrong about the free exercise clause. But the last statement still makes much more sense if he meant politically liberal, which makes it correct.

	21-12-2003 12:17									#299
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: But the last statement still makes much more sense if he meant politically liberal, which makes it correct.

You are making the assumption that yavoon usually makes sense .

	21-12-2003 12:18									#300
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

bleh, I am defeated.