21-12-2003 02:58									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Sava This stupid french bashing is so lame.

I don't think this is stupid French bashing. We've had quite a few good posters in this thread, and I don't believe they're prone to French bashing, despite they disagreed with the decision.

The homogenity of the French Side in this thread has shown something clear: that there is a definite cultural thing in France that makes our understanding of the issue completely different to most people in the rest of the world. This confrontation between cultures is not lame IMHO, it is a good thing, even if it can get a bit confrontational at times.

	21-12-2003 03:22									#212
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quote: This is equivalent to the obligation of disclosing whether we believe in god or not. Freedom of religion is not compatible with this obligation.

That's a silly statement. So what if you disclose if you believe or not? Nothing is going to happen to you for it.

quote: A citizen is supposed to forgo any previous monarch/authority and not to hold it higher than that of the government. A god is a monarch/authority. Therefore, placing a god's laws over the government is not allowed.

Yes, but you can BELIEVE that Sharia should be the US's law. You just can't do it .

quote: If you ban them, you attack the religious feelings of some people. If not, you will have, sooner or later, non-veiled girls attacked and hassled. Which one do you prefer?

A. Why would non-veiled girls be attacked and hassled, when they are BY FAR the majority?! It seems like silly paranoia.

B. Personally I'd prefer the latter (having some non-veiled girls harassed rather than closing off religious liberty which doesn't hurt anyone by itself).

	21-12-2003 03:32									#213
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quote: Why would non-veiled girls be attacked and hassled, when they are BY FAR the majority?! It seems like silly paranoia.

They are.
Girls who are muslim but don't wear the scarf are stigmatized. Maybe catholics arent', but those who look arab are hassled, because they are 'expected' to wear scarves, whatever their personal preferences be.

About whether or not one could say 'God' or not in the U.S.oaths. The problem for me is that 'God' is a word written in the constitution of the U.S. and its legal texts, where it has no room if you want it to be religion-neutral, which is IMO the only way to respect freedom of religion.

	21-12-2003 03:38									#214
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quote: They are. Girls who are muslim but don't wear the scarf are stigmatized. Maybe catholics arent', but those who look arab are hassled, because they are 'expected' to wear scarves, whatever their personal preferences be.

Then deal with the harassment. Don't take the religious rights away from those that want to wear the headscarfs.

quote: The problem for me is that 'God' is a word written in the constitution of the U.S. and its legal texts, where it has no room if you want it to be religion-neutral, which is IMO the only way to respect freedom of religion.

Think about when the Consitution was written. And I don't remember any references to 'God' in the Constitution at all.

No one thinks that today they will be discriminated for being an atheist... well, unless you try to join a Christian group and declare you don't believe in God .

	21-12-2003 04:36									#215
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Imran Siddiqui

You said : That's a silly statement. So what if you disclose if you believe or not? Nothing is going to happen to you for it.

A person detaining public authority does not need to know wheter I am democrat or republicain, because his opinion on the case could be influenced by this information. Samething for the religion or the sexual orientation. Judges should be perfect but most are only human.

	21-12-2003 04:38									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have been attending court proceedings for years and have yet to hear the phrase "so help you God" uttered by the clerk in swearing a witness.

	21-12-2003 05:10									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I wonder if the US is going to criticize itself for deporting 83,000 legal muslim immigrants (reported by Chicago Tribune a few weeks ago) by order of Ashcroft? Not one of them was accused of a crime. And only 11 out of 83,000 had possible, alleged, unproven, connections to possible terror organizations. Oh no... the French are banning headscarfs in PUBLIC schools. I wonder if the same dopes whining about this are whining about dress codes in uniformed schools in the US? This stupid french bashing is so lame.

every discussion to its thread. this is the headscarf thread. not every thread can have the grave importance u wish it to have. or bash the ppl only u wish to bash.

so ur just going to have be a big boy and roll w/ it.

	21-12-2003 05:19									#218
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Imran Siddiqui You said : That's a silly statement. So what if you disclose if you believe or not? Nothing is going to happen to you for it. A person detaining public authority does not need to know wheter I am democrat or republicain, because his opinion on the case could be influenced by this information. Samething for the religion or the sexual orientation. Judges should be perfect but most are only human.

not saying something is not indicative of something else. why does this simple logic escape u?

	21-12-2003 05:29									#219
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I am afraid this is too difficult for you. Forget it.

	21-12-2003 05:32									#220
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I am afraid this is too difficult for you. Forget it.

feigning superiority seems to be the tactic of the day here.

maybe after u should say how I use improper grammar. or how u dislike the fact that I'm me and therefore I am obviously wrong.

all very high brow intellectual tactics only capable of being deployed by the elite of our society.

	21-12-2003 05:46									#221
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quote: The principle of a lay state means you want to allow everyone to have their own religion, but that also means not letting people impose their religious beliefs upon others at school

I guess this is where we disagree. I see expressing one's beliefs and imposing them as fundamentally different. Simply because someone wears a headscarf at school doesn't mean that everyone else has to. As for the harrassment issue, I feel that the government should really be attacking the harrassers through education and punishment than attempting to sweep the differences under the rug. If you think about it, the ban really is a rather superficial way of dealing with this issue.

	21-12-2003 05:53									#222
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Oh, and as to the use of 'God' in the American legal system, you need to accept that the system as a whole has its foundations in Judeo-Christian beliefs, as does the nation. The use of 'God' has become optional in or eliminated from the oaths that we use in the legal system, and I cannot think of any document in which it is used. I may be wrong, but I believe it is incorrect that to assert that God is invoked in the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence, certainly, but that document carries no legal weight.

	21-12-2003 05:57									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: "the real reason why the Ten Commandments display was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building? It wasn't "separation of church and state" but was actually "workplace harassment," as you can't post "Thou Shalt Not Steal" in a building full of lawyers and politicians without creating a hostile work environment." You could not be more wrong if you tried.

Its a joke.

	21-12-2003 06:09									#224
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Smilies man, SMILIES .

It is hard to determine who is joking and not, if you don't have a over the internet.

sorry

quote: I am afraid this is too difficult for you

I'm sorry, but just because he doesn't understand your viewpoint doesn't mean it is too difficult... because you obviously don't understand his. Perhaps I should say that this is too difficult for you?

Once again, it was a silly statement. No judge is going to go after you because you didn't say 'under God' in the oath. It is more the exception than the norm.

	21-12-2003 06:17									#225
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon maybe after u should say how I use improper grammar. or how u dislike the fact that I'm me and therefore I am obviously wrong.

My english grammar is not so good that I can credibly use this tactic. ;D

Let us try to explain again :
If I swear the oath without the reference to god, it indicats that I have made a choice and decided not to ask for the help of god; from that one must deduce that I am an atheist.
On the contrary, if I swear the oath with the reference to god, it is clear that I am a believer.
The option is therefore equivalent to a disclosure of my religious beliefs.

	21-12-2003 06:24									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Smilies man, SMILIES . It is hard to determine who is joking and not, if you don't have a over the internet. sorry quote: I am afraid this is too difficult for you quote: Perhaps I should say that this is too difficult for you? Quel esprit ! [q] Once again, it was a silly statement. No judge is going to go after you because you didn't say 'under God' in the oath. It is more the exception than the norm.

I did not say the judge was going to go after me, but that it was a disclosure of my beliefs, and that such a disclosure is contrary to the freedom of belief.

	21-12-2003 06:25									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen If you think about it, the ban really is a rather superficial way of dealing with this issue.

Did anybody deny this?

When it comes to the issue of women's submission, this law is barely a solution. When it comes to integration, this law is barely a solution.
The real reason behind this law is the attachment of French people to the principle of Laďcité, to the idea that school should be a religion and politics neutral zone.

	21-12-2003 06:25									#228
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quote: If I swear the oath without the reference to god, it indicats that I have made a choice and decided not to ask for the help of god; from that one must deduce that I am an atheist. On the contrary, if I swear the oath with the reference to god, it is clear that I am a believer. The option is therefore equivalent to a disclosure of my religious beliefs.

Yes, we GET that... we are saying 'WHO CARES'? It doesn't influence anything in anyway. In fact it is rarer to hear 'under God'.

	21-12-2003 06:25									#229
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quote: Let us try to explain again : If I swear the oath without the reference to god, it indicats that I have made a choice and decided not to ask for the help of god; from that one must deduce that I am an atheist. On the contrary, if I swear the oath with the reference to god, it is clear that I am a believer. The option is therefore equivalent to a disclosure of my religious beliefs

The problem with your position is that, in the United States, not using 'God' is considered to have no connotation. You can't deduce anything from it because it could indicate a number of very different circumstances.

	21-12-2003 06:27									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: "the real reason why the Ten Commandments display was removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building? It wasn't "separation of church and state" but was actually "workplace harassment," as you can't post "Thou Shalt Not Steal" in a building full of lawyers and politicians without creating a hostile work environment." You could not be more wrong if you tried.

Imram, I think it was a joke

And if I'm right, it was pretty funny

EDIT: this was already mentioned

	21-12-2003 06:36									#231
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Whether or not people will be "harassed" about not wearing a headscarf is no justification for banning them altogether. It is the harassers who are guilty of something.

	21-12-2003 06:37									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen The problem with your position is that, in the United States, not using 'God' is considered to have no connotation. You can't deduce anything from it because it could indicate a number of very different circumstances.

I am prepared to accept that as much as some posters accept that their interpretation of the ban has not in France the meaning they give to it.

Incidentally I wonder what idea of god the US citizens have, since it can be evoked without connotation indicating the reasons why he was evoked.

	21-12-2003 07:08									#233
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90% of Americans view god=money.

	21-12-2003 07:10									#234
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Education is cumpulsory, yes?

Head coverings are compulsory for some people from some sects, yes?

Does anyone not see that as repression of peaceful practice of religious convictions?

	21-12-2003 07:12									#235
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.

	21-12-2003 07:36									#236
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Does anyone not see that as repression of peaceful practice of religious convictions?

Yes, and?

	21-12-2003 07:38									#237
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What happens if muslim girl has to have chemotherapy treatment and looses her hair? Will she be denied the use of a headscarf to cover her bald head?

Suppose a protest group decides that they will start greeting people by mentioning their religious affiliation, such as: "Hi, I'm Ahmed, and I'm a Muslim."
"Hello, I'm Marie and I'm a Roman Catholic."
Would the French nation toss these naughty children out of school?
Come to think of it, what would they do about a kid named "Mohammed" or one named "Jesus"? Their very names would reek of religion. Would they be refused enrollment?

	21-12-2003 07:45									#238
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quote: Yes, and?

That's the fundamental disagreement... which I don't know if other French posters here realize. To North Americans that would be a grave... well, sin .

	21-12-2003 07:47									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What happens if muslim girl has to have chemotherapy treatment and looses her hair? Will she be denied the use of a headscarf to cover her bald head?

Since the students are to be ratted out by the schools' director, you can expect a case-to-case basis. That's like saying the law won't stop the headaches we had for a decade.

quote: Suppose a protest group decides that they will start greeting people by mentioning their religious affiliation

A protest organization is assumed to be forbidden at school. Political expression is supposed to be banned from school the same as religious expression. Now, of course, there is more or less tolerance depending on the school's director; but I haven't seen any school tolerate the formal existence of a political or religious organization within its walls.

	21-12-2003 07:49									#240
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Why shouldn't students be allowed to express political thoughts in school in a non-disruptive manner? Unless they are actually hindering education, what's the point? It sounds almost Orwellian.