20-12-2003 08:51									#1
	Building Wonders: Revisited Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Now that GCA has been eliminated from this continent we can again visit the idea of building a wonder or two (in addition to those that we will need to trigger our GA). This is now the time to d ecide if that's the sort of thing we want to do.

I believe that we have a very good shot at getting Leo's Workshop or Adam Smith, both of which are very good at saving substantial amounts of gold. If we could get one of these th en it would definitely help us out f or the rest of t he game.

The best candidates for building wonders at the moment are BFC, Tripoli and Mingapulco. BFC will need a courthouse after the Palace-jump, so t hat wouldn't be great after 20 or so turns. That leaves Mingapulco and Tripoli as the ideal sites. I believe from a production standpoint Tripoli is probably the best location, with lots of hills and shielded grass tiles we can pump up its SPT quite well.

What does everyone think? We should get t his decided before too long if we want to have a shot at finishing any of the cool Medieval wonders.

	20-12-2003 17:58									#2
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I say we start building something big soon in one of our most productive cities (Tripoli would be a good choice - please make sure that GCA does not land next to it unexpectedly).

We can later decide which wonder it'll be exactly.

edit: GCA still has a city on our continent (Port Blacksand in CFC territory).

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 20-12-2003 at 18:09

	20-12-2003 22:31									#3
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My thoughts are that we shouldn't try for 2 Wonders at the same time now, just one, and that one should be either Commerical or Industrious if at all possible. And there is a good chance that we will need to start it as a different wonder entirely and switch when we have the tech needed.

	20-12-2003 22:33									#4
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Also, if we think that we are going to be invaded by Riders in the next 30 turns, we shouldn't be building a wonder.

	20-12-2003 23:03									#5
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(Just wondering, in civ III is there a shield penalty for swithcing between wonders in mid-build)

if there isn't then I would suggest starting something now and then using the shields to finish "Adam Smith's Wonder". (assuming it works like Civ II's AS)

	21-12-2003 00:09									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud (Just wondering, in civ III is there a shield penalty for swithcing between wonders in mid-build) if there isn't then I would suggest starting something now and then using the shields to finish "Adam Smith's Wonder". (assuming it works like Civ II's AS)

No, and that is what we would be doing.

We would be using a palace "stealth pre-build" for the 600 shield Leo's or Adam Smith. That way no one would know what we were building until we wanted them to know.

	21-12-2003 01:45									#7
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For all of you who might think Leo's isn't worth it I have just one word to say:

GoW

	21-12-2003 02:15									#8
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*agrees wholeheartly with MZ*

	21-12-2003 10:27									#9
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* WhiteBandit doesn't get it.

Ah! So it makes you an untrustworthy neighbor. Perhaps we should reconsider...

	21-12-2003 20:12									#10
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Sorry to break it to you guys, but we're not getting Leo's. Invention is right around the corner, and we've got nothing that looks even close to a Wonder prebuild.

It's great to dream, but let's dream realistically here.


Dominae

	22-12-2003 01:15									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Sorry to break it to you guys, but we're not getting Leo's. Invention is right around the corner, and we've got nothing that looks even close to a Wonder prebuild. It's great to dream, but let's dream realistically here.

IMO, the only threat for Leo's would be GWT. Even if we don't get Leo's we can get Adam Smith. I wouldn't complain with either of them.

	22-12-2003 02:25									#12
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So is Leo's auto upgrade for all units like in Civ II... if that's the case, then I would say we should wait until we can build that... and perhaps even buy it with shield-buy... depending on how much it will cost.

	22-12-2003 02:59									#13
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quote: So is Leo's auto upgrade for all units like in Civ II... if that's the case, then I would say we should wait until we can build that... and perhaps even buy it with shield-buy... depending on how much it will cost.

No, it only halves the price for upgrading, and wonders can't be bought in civ3

	22-12-2003 05:11									#14
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Yes, Smith's is a more attainable and (ultimately) more worthy goal for us at this stage of the game.

DarkCloud, no offense (I mean that), but have you ever played Civ3?


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 22-12-2003 at 11:09

	22-12-2003 08:51									#15
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He has not....

	23-12-2003 04:37									#16
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Would actively building the palace interfere with where the new instant palace would be if the city containing the palace is abandoned?

	23-12-2003 04:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Would actively building the palace interfere with where the new instant palace would be if the city containing the palace is abandoned?

No it won't.

	23-12-2003 04:55									#18
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As was stated in the turn 142 report, we have begun a wonder pre-build in Tripoli. The Palace/Leo's/Adam Smith is currently set to be completed in 58 turns. However, this number will decrease when we are able to increase Tripoli's size after the Palace jump, and if we enter our GA before the build completes.

If people disagree with this move, then they can present their case here as to why they think it is a bad idea.

	23-12-2003 06:57									#19
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At 10 sheilds per turn, for a 600 shield Wonder, it will take a Max of 60 turns. IF we can get 2 to 3 things built in Tripoli so that we can increase it's size and get a better SPT, then we might have it much sooner. But this will require me to examine several options.

On thing I really don't want to do, is to use the Palace as a prebuild for this, at this point in time. The reason that is, I would like the opertunity of having it available to do stealth prebuilds for our GA wonders. Using it for this particular purpose keeps us from doing that.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 24-12-2003 at 03:37

	23-12-2003 07:12									#20
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quote: Originally posted by E_T At 10 sheilds per turn, for a 600 shield Wonder, it will take a Max of 30 turns. IF we can get 2 to 3 things built in Tripoli so that we can increase it's size and get a better SPT, then we might have it much sooner. But this will require me to examine several options.

You told me raising the size of Tripoli would be detrimental to your Palace jump operation. We cannot afford to wait 30+ more turns before starting something like this and hope to get anything out of it.

quote: On thing I really don't want to do, is to use the Palace as a prebuild for this, at this point in time. The reason that is, I would like the opertunity of having it available to do stealth prebuilds for our GA wonders. Using it for this particular purpose keeps us from doing that.

Cathedrals are 160 shields. Both the GW and the Colossus are 200 shields. That means 3/4 of both GA wonders can be built "stealthily." Even if we had the Palace available we would only be able to use the Palace to build 1 entirely stealthily.

	23-12-2003 07:13									#21
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600/10 == 60 != 30

	23-12-2003 19:03									#22
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It would be nice to get Leo's, but I agree with Dominae that it's a longshot. Smiths is more attainable, and it can be argued that it's just as powerful a money-saver.

There remains the issue of our GA. Are we planning to trigger our GA with smallish wonders (Colossus/GW or HG) in order to boost production for improvements and larger wonders (Smiths), or are we planning on triggering our GA later, using Smiths + Hoover (seems kinda late to me)? Or a mixture (Smiths + GW or HG?)?

Or do we figure an attack by CFC is certain, and therefore worrying about wonders for our GA is no necessary?

-Arrian

	23-12-2003 22:25									#23
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The tenative plan of the moment is to build GW + Colossus after we finish with our Palace jump.

	23-12-2003 23:56									#24
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Right, but is Tripoli's prebuild for the GW, or for something like Leos (if still available) or Smiths? I assume the latter?

I think I know where the Colossus will go, but what about the GW? Where are we going to build that?

-Arrian

	24-12-2003 03:29									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Trip You told me raising the size of Tripoli would be detrimental to your Palace jump operation. We cannot afford to wait 30+ more turns before starting something like this and hope to get anything out of it.

I had said that it might and that I couldn't fully answer that question until I can get this scenario finished and do some "real" testing.

[EDIT]
Expanding on that point, I had also said that I might also have to pull a settler out of it, too. The reason for this is because of several variables:

1) Timing of the move - If I get all of the other settlers out that we need AND have the New Location up to the needed pop, at the same time. If I have to add workers to it (and I won't know exactly how many I'll need), I don't need them to be off doing
other chores and not able to get to that city in the required window that I need them for.

2) If, after testing, I can let Tripoli grow, then I'll do it. Exactly how much remains to be seen.

3) If I don't have the workers available OR I can get away with several less workers being added, then I might have to pull a pop or 2 from Tripoli. This also has the added benifit of getting the expansion done just a little bit sooner.

These are the main things, but there are a few others that I can't think on right now, but they are present and possible conserns.

And again, I can't make a full call on anything until I can get this sim done.
[/edit]

quote: Cathedrals are 160 shields. Both the GW and the Colossus are 200 shields. That means 3/4 of both GA wonders can be built "stealthily." Even if we had the Palace available we would only be able to use the Palace to build 1 entirely stealthily.

Granted, we can do that, BUT, the last few turns might be enough to make a difference, if one of the Current Combatants gets a Leader. They might use it ASAP and not wait to move it somewhere else.

E_T

	24-12-2003 03:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 600/10 == 60 != 30

Sorry, I'll edit that. I was 1/2 asleep and just gotten home from working very hard that day (temp assignments S*ck!! But they help pay the bills...).



E_T

	24-12-2003 03:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The tenative plan of the moment is to build GW + Colossus after we finish with our Palace jump.

Or have them Trigger it as soon as we have things in a good position after the jump. It might be right after (not likely) or after we get a little more pop built up after the expansion (better then).

E_T

	24-12-2003 03:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Right, but is Tripoli's prebuild for the GW, or for something like Leos (if still available) or Smiths? I assume the latter?

Yes, the latter.

quote: I think I know where the Colossus will go, but what about the GW? Where are we going to build that?

Probably BFC or Mingapulco if Tripoli isn't done yet.

	24-12-2003 03:50									#29
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I had said that it might and that I couldn't fully answer that question until I can get this scenario finished and do some "real" testing.

You gave me the impression it would not be possible. Either way, as you pointed out, if we go up to size 6 we'll most likely only get 1 extra SPT which will only knock off 3 or 4 turns.

quote: Granted, we can do that, BUT, the last few turns might be enough to make a difference, if one of the Current Combatants gets a Leader. They might use it ASAP and not wait to move it somewhere else.

I doubt another civ seeing us work on one of those two wonders will cause them to race to build it before us. There's better wonders to rush with leaders at the moment...

	24-12-2003 03:51									#30
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Or have them Trigger it as soon as we have things in a good position after the jump. It might be right after (not likely) or after we get a little more pop built up after the expansion (better then).

That's what I meant. I didn't mean trigger it immediately after the Palace jump. We need higher pops and more city improvements to fully capitalize.