20-12-2003 11:28									#1
	Should we give CFC Eq4? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

This is not a bill.

	20-12-2003 11:50									#2
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Not only is it not a bill but the options are misleading (i.e. we're not going to give them Eq4 "right away" and the later date is unspecified).

But I'll take it that it's only a poll to "test the waters"?

	20-12-2003 12:48									#3
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This is a good general poll to at least figure out how the team feels.

--Togas

	20-12-2003 13:24									#4
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Yes, now.

Peace and victory for Apolyton at any cost.

	20-12-2003 13:58									#5
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Yes. My thoughts are in the other thread. We need peace from CFC not war. Giving up a mostly corrupt city in exchange for that is a no-brainer in my opinion.

We need to have the time to set up our land and economy to be able to compete with the other continent!

	20-12-2003 17:21									#6
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Yes-- but don't give them a newly built city there. Instead, abandon Eq, and set up a blockade on Eq and Eq1, then tell them that they're free to settle on Eq4, but with their own settler. (Or is this what we're planning to do anyway?)

	20-12-2003 17:29									#7
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Or ask them for 2 slaves...

DeepO

	20-12-2003 18:13									#8
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I'm confused. How can we 'give' them a non-city square? Maybe you mean what Vlad posted above: abandon our city and tell them to settle Eq-4...?

We could also give them the city and ask them to relocate it. This could be a test for them to see if they are willing to co-operate.

	20-12-2003 18:49									#9
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Give it to them as soon as they ask for it.

	20-12-2003 19:10									#10
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BFM, they want a canal city, and there are only 3 tiles that can be used for that, EQ, EQ1 and EQ4.

I already have things set up to abandon Equil, when the settler is built in 14 turns.

E_T

	20-12-2003 22:41									#11
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No, besides, they don't need it until at least Navigation.

	20-12-2003 23:51									#12
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Just as a reminder:

If we decide to give it right away, it won't be immediately, it will be only unitl we get out a settler from Eq (and obviously until CFC moves a settler up there).


BF, precisely why do they not need it until navigation? galleys can be built at any time.

	21-12-2003 20:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen BF, precisely why do they not need it until navigation? galleys can be built at any time.

Unless I'm reading the map wrong, they can only use Galleys against us. Are we planning to appease CFC by giving them the tools to attack us at a later date?

Let's assume not. CFC wants a canal city in order to mount an invasion of the other continent (that should be their story, at least with respect to the whole "canal" thing). They can build Galleys in the meantime, then upgrade to whatnot to safely get across the ocean upon the discovery of Navigation.

So BigFree's point, regarding the canal argument, is perfectly valid.


Dominae

	21-12-2003 22:50									#14
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If CFC decides to attack us, at a later time, then they will likely attack from several points all at once, both by land and by sea. the only real thing about giving them a canal city, is to maybe make that time later, rather than sooner.

Also, I can see that (currently), the majority wants to give them the city now. My Recomendation, to the Population, the FAM and the Consuls; is that we give Equil the 14 or so turns to abandon it and use that settler to build one of the other cities that we will need. That one settler from here will mean 1 less settler that we have to punch out somewhere else, which means that we can move the palace just a little bit sooner.

MoI E_T

	21-12-2003 23:55									#15
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I think MZ's second post about not giving it to them "right away" is correct. We need to give it time to produce it's settler (and sell the walls too ) before we would let them have the site.

	22-12-2003 10:52									#16
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btw, some of the consuls have suggested that this poll be "offical" since it is doubtful that the team will change positions if another poll is made. Thus, we shall proceed diplomatically with CFC with "the plan", weigh their response and if necessary inform them our decision taken here.

Thank you for all who have voted and expressed their opinion, I am confident that the decision taken will be the correct one.

	22-12-2003 11:17									#17
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I think this is not an "official" poll because it was clearly marked as such on the first post. I certainly feel like theri should be discussion before an "official" poll is held. Many people may change their minds after reading the pro's and con's.

MJW purposely stated that this was not to be considered an official and we should honor that request by starting another poll.

	22-12-2003 11:22									#18
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Official poll or not, the pros and cons have been debated for weeks now. I don't think many people are going to change their minds from what they have already voted on and/or discussed in the other thread.

	22-12-2003 11:23									#19
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BF: people had an entire thread to discuss the pro's and con's, this is simply a voting thread, not a discussion thread. The debate is pretty much over unless somebody else wants to add more.

But anyway, I have no problem with starting an "official" poll if people so desire.

	22-12-2003 11:33									#20
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Well, there's also no "rule" that says someone can't start a poll at any time.

Also, how do you count the votes? I know hat the first option has 10 votes and the other two only have 9...but what if the two other options had more votes than the first? The poll question and options aren't very specific; at least not to my liking.

	22-12-2003 12:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Well, there's also no "rule" that says someone can't start a poll at any time. Also, how do you count the votes? I know hat the first option has 10 votes and the other two only have 9...but what if the two other options had more votes than the first? The poll question and options aren't very specific; at least not to my liking.

If anything the poll questions were biased in favor of NOT giving them Eq4 (I would feel a bit uneasy at giving them "right away" as the poll says).

As for counting the votes it is quite simple. Option with most votes wins, as it has always been done. Never is it stated that a sum of options overrulles the winning option. By your logic I can equally affirm that the voting favored gifting it to them NOW since the sum of votes who want to give it at any time is 16 vs 3.

And since you made your vote quite clear in your first post, I truly doubt that you thought they weren't specific or else you'd have complained earlier.

	22-12-2003 12:48									#22
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We have decided to proceed to discussions with CFC with the fall back of being willing to give up Equilibrium if it seems wise to do so to maintain relations.

MZ will contact them and begin the task.

There has been ample discussion, and now a poll, unofficial though it may be. Of course any agreement with CFC should be put up for final, official approval.

Discussion is still welcome, so please carry on.

	22-12-2003 13:23									#23
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What the hell is an "official poll" anyway?

	22-12-2003 13:32									#24
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That's a good question. Please write 300 words on the topic and submit it by this time Tuesday.

	22-12-2003 20:25									#25
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's a good question. Please write 300 words on the topic and submit it by this time Tuesday.

	22-12-2003 20:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster What the hell is an "official poll" anyway?

I thought BFM was around for those days, but for the benefit of those who weren't:

It's a throwback to the old old days of the SPDG, back before the NewCon, even. Anyone could post a poll on almost any subject, but the results of just any old poll didn't have an official component to them. So if a poll was done where 4/5 of the population was in favor of going to war with the French, the cabinet could certainly still decide to do otherwise, though people might not take nicely to it.

An "official" poll was one started by a minister or the president or vice president about a duty under their charge. The idea was that if a minister saw an issue about which he had authority over but which the team seemed divided on or could use a good discussion and poll rather than him simply deciding it on his own, he started an "official" poll. Ideally, the minister was supposed follow the result of the poll he started, but this was not always the case (nor was it specifically mandated that he did, as I recall).

So I think we sorta have the same idea here in the ISDG, considering the influence of pre-NewCon SPDG system on our system here. Polls are polls, but a poll started by an elected or appointed official in order to give the populace the power to decide an issue that would otherwise be decided by that official is an "official" poll.

Alright, enough rambling. I have X-Mas shopping to catch up on.

	22-12-2003 20:38									#27
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Well, we now have the system in which the Consuls make the final decisions. Ministers are just "advisors" (no offense - they do a terrific job) and the people are even one step further down the ladder.

So all non-election polls are the same: just advisory.

	23-12-2003 02:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Well, we now have the system in which the Consuls make the final decisions. Ministers are just "advisors" (no offense - they do a terrific job) and the people are even one step further down the ladder. So all non-election polls are the same: just advisory.

well not entirely, it's usually the ministers who dictate policy although ultimately they have to convince 1) the people and 2) the consuls. I'd say the ministers are the ones with the most "influence" (should they decide to wield it) but actually the ones with the least true power since they do not have the final word on things nor do they have the numerical power to sway votings. Consuls, on the other hand, have final word on everything but face the very real (as proven twice) threat of a CoC should they go out of line with the people's feelings. So overall I think its a pretty good balance of power.

	23-12-2003 04:52									#29
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Yikes! Sounds too much like Chamberlin's appeasement policies for my taste.

quote: Originally posted by Trip Yes, now. Peace and victory for Apolyton at any cost.

	23-12-2003 09:18									#30
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Well, actually...

G. Senatorial Procedure
2. The Senate has the power to create law, which the Consuls must follow.

There are some rules about how polls for laws are set up too, but they are pretty simple.

Now, most all of the discussions and polls so far in this game have been 'unofficial', or advisory for the Consuls if you will. Consuls would do well to pay heed to all discussions and polls, such as MJW likes to put up. By the way, MJW, I have appreciated your efforts during my time serving as Consul. Cheers.

Now, 'Laws' on the other hand (I can't recall a single one, btw) would best be followed by the Consuls. I would imagine that Consuls over-riding a 'Law' would be on a one way express trip to CoC land if they did not have very good reasons for their actions.

One of the problems with 'Laws' and passage of them, would be that the situation in the game changes very rapidly. By the time a Law could be properly debated, formulated, and polled on, things may very well have been changed.

However, the negotiations we are entering into will have very long term effects and should be somewhat more stable. It is my hope for the relationship with CFC that we are attempting to forge that we 'officially' poll the final resolution and make it a Law.

btw, interestingly, Consuls are not Senators and cannot propose laws or CoCs, which may be one reason why laws have not been so common. The full text follows:

G. Senatorial Procedure

1. All members of the team who are not Consuls are Senators.


2. The Senate has the power to create law, which the Consuls must follow.
a. A Bill must be proposed by a Senator, and clearly state the purpose in the first post, and have the following options for a poll: yea or nay.
b. The Bill must be passed by a simple majority, 50% plus 1, to become a law.
c. All bills must be open for at least 48 hours.


3. The Senate has the power to take a proposal for Change of Command (CoC).
a. Any Senator may proclaim a Change of Command proposal on an elected official.
b. The Senator must state the elected official he is intending to remove from office in the first post - this is called the 'initial proposal'.
c. During 48 hours after the initial proposal, any number of candidates may apply for the job. The Senator himself may or may not apply.
d. After the first 48 hours, but within 72 hours, the Senator must organize a vote - this is called the 'replacement proposal'. If this vote is not organized within this time, the CoC is nulled.
e. The replacement proposal vote must be open for 72 hours.
f. The replacement proposal vote must include all candidates, plus the person who was the subject of the initial proposal, unless this person indicates otherwise.
g. The CoC vote shall be done with a preferential ballot. The person with the highest outcome wins the election.
h. An elected official may only propose a Change of Command vote on himself, and not on another one.
i. Any elected official may not be the subject of a CoC for five turns after his election.