20-12-2003 21:40									#1
	The rights of father Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

.. I just came back from an old buddy of mine who I haven't seen in a while. He's a daddy of a 4 year old girl.
He got divorced, well actually the mom divorced him. It didn't work I guess, I know he's a good guy so there's nothing nasty to it, but it didn't work. When my buddy came from work, there was nothing but a note 'I'm leaving, I'm taking the kids with me too'. What a day, huh?

Anyway, like being a reasonable human being, she didn't ever negotiate or talk about the situation more than that, she just left and took the kids. And like in most cases, it came be surprise. He was heartbroken, he can't see his daughter. There was no court orders to not let him see it, and he went to see them to the 'new home' which btw already had a 'new man' which made it clear what happened in the first place. Naturally I symphatize my friend, even if the facts were screwed up, but I try to stay with the facts.

They don't let him in. They don't let him see the kids. But, she does want the monthly pay check, and denies she's with a new supporter, but I believe my friend who says she's with a new man, because she lives with him.

There is about nothing he can do about it. Now it's christmas, and he again remembers what happened, spending it alone, only trying to reach his daugher to say few words. Today I was there, and he showed the gift he was trying to give her daughter. Naturally, she's always ordered to her room so there would be no contact what so ever. So, he left the present anyway to their doorstep. It came back, with a note that I saw 'don't try to bribe my daughter you bastard'. Bribe? How about a christmas present? And he tells me she's feeding BS to the kid, like that he'd be a bad man and lies. I know he's not a bad man.

This is what I think happened. She found a new man and fell in love. The previous relationship wasn't working so good, so she thought she'd start a new life. Taking the kid. Denying the fathers right to see the kid. He can go to whatever court orders but if she won't co-operate, it's pretty much just a piece of papers.

It struck me how evil people can be. And also, that justice doesn't care about fathers.

	20-12-2003 21:46									#2
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In my eyes this is kidnapping pure and simple. One parent doesn't own the child. I mean if the daddy is some drunk bastard who doesn't care and beats on the kid anyway, then I don't care if he loses his rights. But when it's a good man and someone playing evil games because she wanted something more out of her life and thought **** the father, this is for me baby, then I think she should burn in hell for that. I really do.

	20-12-2003 21:50									#3
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There must be something he can do with the courts?

	20-12-2003 21:53									#4
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Why can't he go to court? I don't know about Finland, but in the US the infidelity of one partner could be considered an argument against that person's fitness to raise the child.

	20-12-2003 21:55									#5
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If the story is true, Sue the *****.

	20-12-2003 21:58									#6
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Well, that definitely is a sour situation for the father.

As long as he's not abusive, negligent, or anything like that, he has the right to see his daughter.

	20-12-2003 21:58									#7
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There are endless stories like that here. It's really pissing me off, because it's almost always the kids that suffer the most, because one or both of the parents become very selfish and use the kids as weapons against eachother

	20-12-2003 21:59									#8
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Yeah he can go to 'court' He'd need to get a better job first I reckon to make a better impression though. He'll prolly go to court. Then he might get like one weekend with the kid every month or some sick arrangement. Better than nothing though.

But if she doesn't co-operate, the reality is, he won't be seeing his daughter. He talked to some man on the internet because he was looking people in the same situation and wanting to talk, and a guy said he hasn't seen his boy for 2 years. The cops won't come and force the mom to let the dad see the kids.. the social workers might have a say, but hey.. it's a game, and it can be played by both sides, but the other side will pay the price of not seeing the kid. I think this is stupid.

	20-12-2003 22:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Well, that definitely is a sour situation for the father. As long as he's not abusive, negligent, or anything like that, he has the right to see his daughter.

Actually, I haven't understood, what was the decision of the court concerning the kids.

	20-12-2003 22:00									#10
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MrFun, of course he has the right. And he wants that too. But.... well there could be a change, because he will go to court for this I think,,, but it takes time and time and time, and like I said, then it's a game.

	20-12-2003 22:01									#11
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Given that Pekka recently posted on how lenient the Finnish judicial system is on people who commit violent crimes I wonder how many people get so P.O.d with this kind of situation that they lose it and simply kill the ex-partner?

	20-12-2003 22:04									#12
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And this is not women bashing thread. It's a selfish person bashing thread. It's the kids who suffer.. and anyway, what's it about anyway? Is it about winning the love from the kids, so that's why you don't let the other one see, and that's why you lie to them and talk badly of them? So the kid wouldn't want to move or see the other person? It's sick, all I can say it's sick.. there should be a selfishness test, and if you can't pass, you can't have any kids, for both men and women.

	20-12-2003 22:05									#13
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Cerberus, I don't think it happens here very much.. but it happens very much, that they kill themselves.

	20-12-2003 22:08									#14
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And I've also seen divorces that works in this sense.. one of my buddies from childhood had his dad coming all the time. THere was no beef between the parents.. his mom let him visit his dad when ever he wanted, and let stay over too when ever he wanted. We had sleepovers there many times. And they had a horrible marriage. But they had decided to call the truce and approach the situation like that.. so it can work with some people, if they just behave civilized.

	20-12-2003 22:16									#15
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Laws favor mothers way too much here in the States, too, or so it seems.

	20-12-2003 22:19									#16
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I think laws definitely favour moms. I guess it's the dads who mostly are responsible for kids abusings etc and just being bad fathers, but when it comes to good guys, I think the law favours too much the other side.

Ideally, parents would solve this thing themselves. But they are too stupid.

	20-12-2003 22:30									#17
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Talk to a lawyer and hope she doesn't invent funny stuff like "he was drunk all the day" or some crap like that

	20-12-2003 22:49									#18
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In this case, how is the mom keeping him out? Once she opens the door, there isn't anything she can really do to stop him.

	20-12-2003 23:09									#19
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skywalker, she won't open the door. And, he don't want to brake in either, because that would make sure he'll never see the kid again.

	21-12-2003 00:59									#20
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Blackice? Is that you?

	21-12-2003 01:02									#21
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Snapcase won't answer the question! Snapcase won't answer the question! nya nya nya.

	21-12-2003 02:11									#22
	Re: The rights of father Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Pekka It struck me how evil people can be. And also, that justice doesn't care about fathers.

Surely there must be a law against that. Could he try for custody? Even if he doesn't win, unless he's done something pretty bad himself, he should get decent visiting rights. If she doesn't comply, the court can allow him to stop paying maintainance and send baliffs round if it takes it (at least in this country).

There may be another side to the story, but from what you've said, that looks pretty horrific

	21-12-2003 02:52									#23
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Men have very little power when it comes to these things.

For good reason feminist activists have attacked the system since the 70s and have got much of what they wanted and more. Some people think it may have gone too far in certain aspects.

I for one do not think that men should have to pay child maintenance payments as long as abortion on demand is the policy.

	21-12-2003 05:36									#24
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My big brother is in exactly the situation you describe. His oldest daughter (12 years old) was kidnapped by her mother and talked into hating him and refusing to meet him. The younger kids still move back and forth between them every second week. But just recently, the oldest daughter finally got "home", despite the protests from her mother. My brother won in court and got to meet his kid. They visited my house today, and there seemed to be no hard feelings between them (father and daughter). My kids just love to play with their older cousins and the joy goes both ways, so I think it's a big pity my brother and his ex can't get along.

My brother married a new wife from Thailand 2 weeks ago, and his ex-wife's lawyer used this as an argument in court to "prove" he's a bad father. My brother sued the lawyer for racism and will very likely win. In what way would the nationality of his new wife affect his ability to take care of his kids?

By the way, Pekka, I told my brother about your "David Blaine hovering trick" six months ago. Now he had downloaded everything about it from the net and was training to teach his kids to do it

	21-12-2003 05:52									#25
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Chemical Ollie, I hope your brother wins the case, looks like things are looking up to him though... these things sucks and I imagine it was hard times... Maybe I'll understand it better when I have own kids, but it didn't look easy on my buddy so I kind of have a feeling about what it might be.

Yeah, that trick is awesome! I can't do it anymore that good, and I never was very good anyway but I fooled few people for few seconds... I was drunk at Uni party, and said to these chicks I never seen before from another department I can hover and you know all drunk, finally got them to watch me after several pleads and 'go away' answers, and failed miserably. It was horrible, they didn't even laugh at me but were more like 'yeah what a loser'
The other Blaine tricks are impressive too.... the hover one is maybe the most difficult one, and also it doesn't work so well on people you know.. Blaine works up the trick so good people freak out.... sets them up so good.
The 540 grade hand still continues to amaze buddies though .

	21-12-2003 06:52									#26
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quote: I for one do not think that men should have to pay child maintenance payments as long as abortion on demand is the policy.

I concur.

On your friend, Pekka. That is horrible. The system has swung too far, unfortunetly.

	21-12-2003 06:58									#27
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Well I don't know it's the fault of system on this one.. maybe on the part that it's not effective enough to deliver justice or some kind of settlement fast enough, that guarantees some kind of results for every party, and the end of the senseless abusing of kids mind and using it as a weapon to fight each other. If you love the kid enough, you should realize that you want the kids happiness more than anything, right? Do you know lots of kids who don't want to see both their parents, assuming none of them is abusing the kid?

	21-12-2003 07:05									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I for one do not think that men should have to pay child maintenance payments as long as abortion on demand is the policy. I concur. On your friend, Pekka. That is horrible. The system has swung too far, unfortunetly.

Yeah, the law seems broken on this one. Especially since parental obligations and rights can no longer be tied to biological parenthood (surrogacy, IVF, etc.).

Some kick-ass lawyer needs to expose these laws.

Here's a chance for Imran Siddiqui esq., lawyer of Georgia, to show his quality.

	21-12-2003 07:18									#29
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OTOH my brother's daughter lost custody of her pre-school aged son two years ago. She married this guy when she was a teenager, but he abused her. Heck, he even fought with her right in front of my brother's family and my family one Christmas. The boy was exposed to this violent treatment of his mother throughout infancy and toddlerhood. The guy eventually walked out on her, leaving her to raise the kid. The kid became a little hellion. At age three he tried to smother my daughter. I've attributed his behavior to having been exposed to violence at an early age. Two years later the ex-husband remarries and then sues for custody of the boy. He uses reports that my niece's then boyfriend hit the child as a pretext for removing the child from her custody. The funny thing is that it turns out that the recent boyfriend had been a friend of the ex-husband's and was an employee of the ex-husband's father.

One of our female employees had a similar experience. Her ex-husband had abused her, then walked out. She got a restraining order requiring him to keep his distance from her, despite which he managed to enter her home, remove her baby, and then when followed back to his home brandished a firearm at her. When the case went to court the judge decided that the child should simply stay with whomever currently had custody, which at the time was the father.

What ties these two cases together is that both occurred in rural settings and that in both cases the fathers' parents had personal connections the county judges.

	21-12-2003 07:19									#30
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Hey, I have 1.5 years until I can call myself Esq. I don't want to get in trouble with the Bar Association .