20-12-2003 23:23									#1
	German military prepares for offensive operations. Get a bigger avatar today!

Ok now for some serious sh*t.


The general inspector of the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces,Wolfgang Schneiderhahn has disclosed his new and revolutionary plan.

Instead of dividing the armed forces into army, navy and airforce, the new model will work with an expeditionary force of 35.000 men, a stabilization force of 70.000 men and a support force of 145.000 men.

18.000 men from the expeditionary force will be under the new EU expeditionary force.

The new structure will work under the assumption that German armed forces should be able to accomplish five different missions at the same time.

There will be an overall cut in equipment and men, however the draft will be retained, and new equipment like the Airbus A 400-M troop carrier and the Eurofighter will be introduced.

Last edited by Tripledoc on 20-12-2003 at 23:31

	20-12-2003 23:27									#2
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Those are five very small missions.

	20-12-2003 23:33									#3
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Yes that's what I thought too. Strange.

	20-12-2003 23:34									#4
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Is there anything wrong? No bad in preparing your military.

(Though German military doctrines have been known to be efficient and avant-garde. Are we to expect a third Sedan?)

	20-12-2003 23:36									#5
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I'm not entirely sure I see the logic in this division. In the US, we build expeditionary forces as we need them, which allows us to select units based on the task (not that this always goes right, but it does allow for it). Cookie cutter expeditionary forces don't seem like a good idea to me.

	20-12-2003 23:51									#6
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Is this just an idea they are playing with or is it actually going itnto effect?

It seems ludicris to me. How do they plan on organizibng trianing if their navy is in for branches, airforce in thee, and army in four? Are you sure they are not talking about diferent operational commands as opposed to branches? America has regional commander CinCs that control all military assets in an are for unfied command., but that has nothing to do with organizational structure.

I would imagine making a change like this to be impossible as I am sure the various branches of the Bundswehr has more than enough political clout to stop it.

- Pat

	20-12-2003 23:57									#7
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No the idea is to largely make the distinction between the three branches obsolete, and instead form three new cores around which to build the new Army.

	21-12-2003 00:55									#8
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Seems to me they will have 35000 ti go and do the fighting, 70000 to clear up the mess and the rest to tidy the barracks in Germany

	21-12-2003 01:27									#9
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I doubt German military operations could get any more offensive than they were 60 years ago.

	21-12-2003 01:31									#10
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bringing some (more) facts into this discussion.
1. Art. 26 Grundgesetz (the German constitution) doesn´t allow any kind of agressive war.
now it´s up to anyone´s definition what an aggressive war actually is. is there any difference between an aggressive war and an offensive war?
meanwhile pure country defense is hardly an issue anymore, since Germany is surrounded by friends only. but...
2. German minister of defense, Peter Struck quoted about one year ago: "Die Sicherheit Deutschlands wird auch am Hindukusch verteidigt" (The security of Germany also has to be defended at the Hindukush).
although I respect Peter Struck as a competent minister, I find this quote very dubious, since it can justify any kind of war about everywhere in the world, but just calling it a defense war.
there was no mentionable opposistion to his quote here in Germany, though. the PDS (the communists) would be the only party opposing this new orientation, but they virtually have no voice in our parlament anymore.
3. because of this, there´s currently running a reforming process in Germany. part of it is the numbers Tripledoc stated here. from my knowledge, they´re correct. but I´d like to see a link about that.
also there´s a tendency against conscription. there´s still an conscription army in Germany, but the number of drafted men is declining.
Strucks idea is replacing quantity by quality. in favor of peacekeeping troops and crisis reaction forces country defense doesn´t play a major role anymore. this is amazing, since our constitution does allow an army solely for country defense. (Art 87a Grundgesetz)
but as I already mentioned there´s no opposition to this, neither inside Germany nor outside.

we will see how the current and future goverments will be able to fit this new orientation into our constitution.

	21-12-2003 01:43									#11
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They are finally getting close to the numbers imposed by the Versialles (sp) treaty.

	21-12-2003 02:40									#12
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It's very hard to imagine why Germany would need a draft with such small armed forces.

That said, it seems that the German military is taking the next step in integration of the three branches into a single fighting machine. The US has not totally done this yet, it appears, but it is getting very close since it does place all branches under one commander, almost always Army, during actual operations.

We should observe the German experiment with interest.

	21-12-2003 02:45									#13
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I am still sceptical. Canada has just one branch, but even within that organization they pretty much ahve an Army Navy and Airforce just becasue for training, supply and logistic purposes these entities have few similarities.

I was under the idea that the Bundswhere was like the Wehrmacht in that the word means Armed Forces with the Heer, Lrftwaffe, and Marine forces divided within its structure.

-Pat

	21-12-2003 03:04									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It's very hard to imagine why Germany would need a draft with such small armed forces.

two reasons:
1. the Bundeswehr values high education. however, people with an high education generally don´t want to become professional soldiers (in Germany). as long as we have a conscription army, it´s easier for the Bundeswehr recruiting high educated soldiers for a professional army. currently by far not all conscripts can be drafted, but you can figure that the Bundeswehr has a high priority in drafting well educated conscripts.
2. more than 1/3 of all conscripts claim conscious objections. that way civil service became an important social factor in Germany the recent years. abolishing conscription would also mean abolishing civil service, which could cause major social problems - at least if done from one day to another.

	21-12-2003 04:25									#15
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oedo, does Germany have the equivalent of our West Point, etc.?

	21-12-2003 05:01									#16
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Sounds interesting. However, I doubt you need draft.

Interesting plans, we'll see how it develops. I think it's about the right time German military prepares for offensives as well.

	21-12-2003 05:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I think it's about the right time German military prepares for offensives as well.

A German offensive force?? Not in my lifetime

	21-12-2003 05:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ned oedo, does Germany have the equivalent of our West Point, etc.?

There is the Universität der Bundeswehr München and the Universität der Bundeswehr Hamburg.

	21-12-2003 05:23									#19
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I don´t think so, but I don´t know much about West Point.
I know about two universities the Bundeswehr owns, one is in Hamburg, another one in Munich.
Hamburg and Munich are comparable to civil universities and you can study subjects you can also study at a civil university. the difference is, going there means you have to join the bundeswehr for at least 8 years. they are said to offer a very good education.

also there´s an officer´s academy in Hamburg. (http://www.fueakbw.de/index.php) before you are promoted to a higher rank you need to pass certain seminars and tests there.

I don´t know any more details, but I hope that could answer your question.

	21-12-2003 05:42									#20
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I was just wondering why you needed a draft to get higher educated Germans to join the army. The United States, we have three military academies, one for each of the services, run by US government, the Virginia Military Institute, and numerous ROTC programs in other colleges.

	21-12-2003 05:57									#21
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For a greater strategic picture.
Here is an interesting map of installed European Wind Energy. Note Germany's supremacy.

Accobatreader.http://www.ewea.org/documents/WIND_CAP_JUNE03.pdf

	21-12-2003 05:57									#22
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I think that conscription is necessary in Germany largely due to an understandable distaste for most things military that is common there. And yes, the universities mentioned are roughly equivalent to the American military academies.

	21-12-2003 06:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I was just wondering why you needed a draft to get higher educated Germans to join the army.

with high education I meant something different. going to university (no matter whether civil or bundeswehr)requires an "abitur". that´s the highest degree you can gain at school (maybe comparable to an highschool exam). problem is, least people with an abitur consider joining the Bundeswehr. even worse: among the "Abiturients" there´s the highest rate of people claiming conscious objection.
Kirnwaffen pointed the whole "problem" out.

	21-12-2003 06:26									#24
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Didn't Germany introduce conscription for women too?

	21-12-2003 07:48									#25
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Germany preparing offensive forces...

that irks me a little more than Japan preparing offensive forces.

	21-12-2003 07:57									#26
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quote: that irks me a little more than Japan preparing offensive forces.

It really shouldn't. I think you'll find the German people of today a bit more responsible than they were in the 30s/40s. Besides that, part of an effective defense is an ability to hit back.

	21-12-2003 08:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij A German offensive force?? Not in my lifetime

Why? It's well past time for them to get back to the national sport of invading France.

	21-12-2003 08:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why? It's well past time for them to get back to the national sport of invading France.

Nah, we cheat, now that we have nukes.

	21-12-2003 08:38									#30
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You'd surrender before pressing the button.