21-12-2003 23:45									#31
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yes

gay marriage is okay with me. I voted against Nevada's constitutional change to define marraige as only between a man and a woman.

I can care less if gay people marry. It's their funeral

	21-12-2003 23:53									#32
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quote: We should always do what the minority wants shouldn't we!! It's so clear now.

What the ****? Are you saying the slaves shouldn't've been freed? (Is he always like this?)

I wasn't saying "The minority is always right". I was saying "The majority isn't always right, and we should protect the minority because it might in fact be right."

	21-12-2003 23:57									#33
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yep, agreed. Only listen to the minority when the majority is clearly wrong.

	22-12-2003 00:20									#34
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Should gay marriage be illegal because a lot of people are against it? Should it then be illegal if a certain percent of people are against it? What percent is that? 50%? So if the majority of people think slavery is good, then we should adapt it? Or if the majority of people think that catholicism and judaeism should be banned, should it be?

SCOTUS might say that anti marriage laws are unconstitutional, but they'll prolly vote 5-4 in favor. That bigot Scalia will lead the charge to keep 'gays in their place.' All the bible thumpers will applaud when these laws are passed, even though being gay doesn't even make the top ten.

Let's see how many people really believe in freedom and liberty instead of paying lip service to it.

Last edited by Lawrence of Arabia on 22-12-2003 at 00:26

	22-12-2003 02:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue We should always do what the minority wants shouldn't we!! It's so clear now.

Remember Stew, Democracy is not tyranny of the majority. This issue is a personal one and it is not the right of anyone, including the majority of people, to enforce their arbitrary will on people when it is of no concern to them whatsoever. How would you feel if a similar law was passed saying that Mancunians living in Wales cannot get married (or whatever)? It is just as arbitrary...

	22-12-2003 02:38									#36
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'Traditional Values Coalition'- those traditional values presumably being ignorance, prejudice and stupidity.

If the people quoted are representative of those polled, then the N.Y.T. hit a rich seam of ignorance and gullibility:

"I just don't think it's right for two men to go parading around in public or for two women to be doing the things they do. It's against God's law. That's right in the Bible that it's wrong."

God's law. Super. He'll be giving up pork, making burnt offerings, stoning women to death and excluding the disabled from the temple too will he? Perhaps if he could drag himself into the 3rd millennium instead of inhabiting 2500 B.C. , he might find the world a different place from that of a band of itinerant sheepherders'.

"If I knew that we had a neighbor who was gay, I would not let my nieces and nephews go close by there. I don't want to accept their lifestyle. It can be acquired and it is not right."

And clearly madame, stupidity can definitely be acquired or bred in the bone. Does anyone know where I can 'acquire' some lesbianism? I'd like to give some to a straight male friend of mine, I'm sure he'd be delighted.
No one has ever explained successfully what this gay 'lifestyle' entails. How do I know if I have it? Where can I get it? Does IKEA sell it? Will Wal-Mart or Enjo sell a discounted version?

If I had a neighbour like her, I'd move.

"I want my children to grow up and be normal people like me and my father and my grandfather was," said Ziad Nimri, 41, a salesman and a Democrat who lives in Spokane, Wash. "I don't want my children to start getting ideas. They see it's out in the open and you see men kissing men on television these days."

Mr. Nimri said he was also worried that if gays were allowed to marry, they would get other rights too, like tax benefits. "Because they're a minority, they're going to start actually giving them more privileges than normal people would have," he said. "Minorities always tend to get more than your average person does."

Oh gee, Mr. Nimri, aren't I normal too? Oh no, of course, I'm a homo. Well ain't it strange, but with a name like Ziad Nimri, I'm betting he comes from an ethnic or religious minority. So could he explain, do you think, what extra rights or privileges he's entitled to, for simply being Ziad Nimri ?

Gay men and women don't want extra rights, or special rights, or funds for being gay, don't want to convert their neighbours' children, don't want to make heterosexuals sit at the back of the bus, or wear i.d. cards, they just want the same deal as heterosexuals, and fail to see why religious prejudice should get in the way of that, in a secular state.

	22-12-2003 02:45									#37
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If such an amendment gets its way on the Constitution, it will prove once and for all America isn't the land of the free, but rather, the land of dopey conservative dickheads.

	22-12-2003 03:34									#38
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I predicted this. The continued use of the courts rather than the legislatures to force social change in the United States creates anger in reaction. Gay marriages and ban on Christmas are the current causes being pushed.

The people look at who are behind this and see nothing but Democrats. There is little wonder the socially conservative are moving in droves to the Republican party.

Unless I am wrong here, the Democrats are going to be wiped out in the next election.

	22-12-2003 03:46									#39
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loved the quotes from the anti gay-marriage people. this article will help the undecided to see the moron attitude behind organizations like these "concerned women".

	22-12-2003 04:08									#40
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Mazarin, admittedly some of the comments from the anti-gay rights people are stupid, but what I see in this thread and indeed in the debate at large is hard-lined hatred, true boiling hatred, of Christianity.

How do you think Christians are going to react to that?

	22-12-2003 04:13									#41
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I don't think anyone here hates Christians...I think they (myself included) hate what people do and believe in the name of Christianity.

	22-12-2003 04:23									#42
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Orange, calling religious types ignorant, bigoted and generally laughing at them is hardly conducive to rational debate because it exhibits, IMHO, hatred that only polarizes the debate and generates hatred in return.

	22-12-2003 04:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Orange, calling religious types ignorant, bigoted and generally laughing at them is hardly conducive to rational debate because it exhibits, IMHO, hatred that only polarizes the debate and generates hatred in return.

its not against Christians: I'd laugh at any atheist/moslem/jewish/*insert any group I might have missed* if they used similar arguements. There are many sensible Christians I know, some of them are even using arguements against gay marriage that I do respect -even if I don't agree with them.

	22-12-2003 05:02									#44
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I don't like the idea of gay marriages, but this should be kept out of the constitution.

Then again, perhaps all marriages should be dumped in favor of 5 year marriage leases. You know, you have to get it renewed every 5 years or you can opt out.

	22-12-2003 05:05									#45
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that would save alot of problems

	22-12-2003 05:09									#46
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orange, and if you have followed my posts here, I think a direct approach to the Vatican, for example, would result in rethinking dogma. Most Christians base their beliefs on the Bible which says that homosexual practices are sinful. This implies that homosexuals are like everyone else and their sexualty is voluntary - involving CHOICE. But the counter to this that God created homosexuals who have NO CHOICE. He could not have intended such beings never to have sex except with a woman who was his wife.

This is the kind of debate that would respect the religious beliefs of Christians.

	22-12-2003 05:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 that would save alot of problems

For many of my friends, 5 years would be too long.

	22-12-2003 05:53									#48
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quote: How do you think Christians are going to react to that?

How do they think gays will react to christians forcing them apart and keeping them from living a happy life. Why does it work only one way? Is it not polarizing to say that being gay is 'wrong' or 'not natural.' How would you like to be called not natural.

quote: Most Christians base their beliefs on the Bible which says that homosexual practices are sinful.

Good for them. If I ever owned a bookstore, I'd put that piece of literature in the fiction section. If they want to live by it, no problem. BUT EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THEY GOTTA STICK THEIR NOSES IN OTHER PEOPLES BUSINESS AND PREVENT THEM FROM LIVING THEIR LIFE?

Thats just wrong and cannot be defended in any way.

	22-12-2003 06:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned orange, and if you have followed my posts here, I think a direct approach to the Vatican, for example, would result in rethinking dogma. Most Christians base their beliefs on the Bible which says that homosexual practices are sinful.

So's eating lobster or wearing polyester/cotton blends (which are sinful but for entirely non-religious reasons)

quote: This implies that homosexuals are like everyone else and their sexualty is voluntary - involving CHOICE.

Wow! You guys choose to be sexually attracted to women? So you can like choose not to be as well? So this whole heterosexual thang is just basically a tickbox on the questionairre of life? Odd cause no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to uncheck the box labled "Homo".

quote: But the counter to this that God created homosexuals who have NO CHOICE. He could not have intended such beings never to have sex except with a woman who was his wife. This is the kind of debate that would respect the religious beliefs of Christians.

How about we have a little dose of humility and for once truly admit that we don't know what an all powerful, all knowing divine Being has planned for we small apes. Maybe God loves gay people. Maybe He's a bit miffed that the message has gotten a bit distorted since the original Ten Commandments (try as I might, can't recall a single thing one prohibiting gay marriage). Maybe, even, these judicial rulings and legislation in other parts of the world are His way of making men equal without having to resort to a huge burning bush.

Now I like Christians. I truly do. Muslims, Jews, and all other believers as well. I'm an atheist but it even gets me miffed to see people proclaim, on the one hand, the unknowable awesomeness divinity of God and on the other hand, claim to know His most personal thoughts on who I can or cannot marry. Especially when they base their reasoning on a much translated, often edited book written 2000 years ago by desert nomads. I'm sure God can keep up with the times so why can't they?

	22-12-2003 06:03									#50
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quote: Odd cause no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to uncheck the box labled "Homo".

Thats because its written in pen, and there's no whiteout.

	22-12-2003 06:03									#51
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What we need is somebody to come forward with a bill recognizing marriage as a union between two non-Christians.

	22-12-2003 06:05									#52
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This issue will win Bush the Presidency. Nice.

	22-12-2003 06:06									#53
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What we need is to recognize that a marriage is a contract between individuals and in fact has nothing to do with religion.

	22-12-2003 06:12									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Most Christians base their beliefs on the Bible which says that homosexual practices are sinful. This implies that homosexuals are like everyone else and their sexualty is voluntary - involving CHOICE. But the counter to this that God created homosexuals who have NO CHOICE. He could not have intended such beings never to have sex except with a woman who was his wife. This is the kind of debate that would respect the religious beliefs of Christians.

maybe the US could need some more French-inspired laws...you know: religious beliefs influencing constitution and stuff
Why it is necessary to convince Christians that the Bible might be wrong? They should maybe prove the Bible is right.

	22-12-2003 06:18									#55
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quote: Orange, calling religious types ignorant, bigoted and generally laughing at them is hardly conducive to rational debate because it exhibits, IMHO, hatred that only polarizes the debate and generates hatred in return.

No, people on the right try and make it Democrats vs religion... but it's not. It's lunatic, ignorant, bigoted Christians versus everyone else. These people hate freedom and they are so afraid that their dopey brand of religion is losing followers that they want to turn this country into a Christian nation.

	22-12-2003 09:55									#56
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1) If marriage is a religious issue, then surely it is of no concern of the constitution to be making judgement on what constitutes a religously acceptable marriage. Its simply up to the beliefs of the two participants and the celebrants. Is the US technically not meant to be a secular state (church and state seperation and all).

2) If it is purely a legal issue, then the concern should be over the rights and privileges that married people receive that gay people are denied having. In a legal sense I see no reason why you should not be allowed to name any person as your spouse in terms of all legal entitlements associated with such a position. Hell, as a legally single person I am denied the chance to use the rights and privileges associated with marriage. That agrieves me.


The simplest solution I see to this is for gay people to have purely ceremonial weddings, and then be given de facto rights.

	22-12-2003 10:00									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I don't like the idea of gay marriages, but this should be kept out of the constitution. Then again, perhaps all marriages should be dumped in favor of 5 year marriage leases. You know, you have to get it renewed every 5 years or you can opt out.

Have you read Memory of Earth?

	22-12-2003 10:06									#58
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No no wait.. is homosexuality illegal in the US???

	22-12-2003 10:07									#59
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quote: "I want my children to grow up and be normal people like me and my father and my grandfather was"

Every time I see people saying that being not "normal" is a bad thing, I feel a sudden urge of executing them. "Normal", WTF is that supposed to mean?

EDIT: Arrrh. VJ's Very Obscure Chain of Logic (tm) -- > Everything what the 'not normal' group is wanting to do is actually 'normal', therefore, they are 'normal', but since group of 'normals' doesn't do it 'normally', they don't think it's 'normal': If so, does 'normal' mean everything the 'normal' people do, and nothing else? If not so, then WTF is that supposed to mean?

	22-12-2003 10:13									#60
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quote: "Normal", WTF is that supposed to mean?

1. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.

2. Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.

http://www.dictionary.com