22-12-2003 10:15									#61
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Okay, were you just being a smartass or doesn't that sentence make sense at all?

	22-12-2003 10:15									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: "Normal", WTF is that supposed to mean? 1. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations. 2. Biology. Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies. http://www.dictionary.com

So homosexuality is normal then.

	22-12-2003 10:17									#63
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quote: So homosexuality is normal then.

Good to see that even some people realize my obscure chain of logic.

	22-12-2003 10:18									#64
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quote: Okay, were you just being a smartass or doesn't that sentence make sense at all?

If you really weren't looking for a definition, then I'm going to go with the latter. I was being a smartass, though.

BTW, did you just change your name or something?

	22-12-2003 10:22									#65
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quote: BTW, did you just change your name or something?

Positive. One of the reasons was the fact that almost nobody was able to spell my old one correctly, it was too long, filled with vowels and didn't make any sense at all to most of the people at ACS.

	22-12-2003 10:28									#66
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You have to admit that this is a pretty high number of support for a constitutional amendment. I think the number would be much lower if the majority felt that its wishes would be respected by the courts, or indeed if the public felt that it was being consulted adequately on the matter. It's as if the debate is being closed well before middle America has come to a political decision on the issue.

The question of both slavery and segregation are instructive, but not in the way stated by many above. Both questions were resolved primarily through a political process (or a political process at the end of a bayonnet) and in both cases the wishes of the majority won the day.

There's really no shortcut for gay rights, IMO. You have to convince a majority of Americans that the position is correct. Going primarily through the courts will not lend the needed legitimacy.

	22-12-2003 10:48									#67
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quote: There's really no shortcut for gay rights, IMO. You have to convince a majority of Americans that the position is correct. Going primarily through the courts will not lend the needed legitimacy.

Unfortunetly I believe you are right, Dan. The reason the abortion issue is so hotly contested, I believe, is because the courts ended the political discussion before the country had come to a democratic consensus (which probably would have ended up pro-abortion with some limitations, IMO). It has led to charges of the Imperial Judiciary, meaning that most people the people aren't being asked their opinion, which they feel they should in a democracy.

	22-12-2003 11:03									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka No no wait.. is homosexuality illegal in the US???

It was in Texas (and some other states) until that SCOTUS ruling earlier in the year.

	22-12-2003 11:21									#69
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quote: The reason the abortion issue is so hotly contested, I believe, is because the courts ended the political discussion before the country had come to a democratic consensus (which probably would have ended up pro-abortion with some limitations, IMO). It has led to charges of the Imperial Judiciary, meaning that most people the people aren't being asked their opinion, which they feel they should in a democracy.

I would agree with that thought. It's a settled issue in most other Western countries. Despite the fact that Americans are well to the right of these Western countries on the issue of abortion, we have the most liberal rules. Why is this the case? The courts intervened.

Or maybe we aren't to the right of these countries on the issue. We'll never know. Or we might know, if the courts overturn their earlier decisions.

	22-12-2003 11:35									#70
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Where's Ben Kenobi? He backed out of the last debate, let's see if he resurfaces here...

	22-12-2003 11:42									#71
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Where's Ben Kenobi? He backed out of the last debate, let's see if he resurfaces here...

I'm proud of you Floyd... knowing your devout Christian beliefs, I'm surprised you are on my side of this debate. I guess it just goes to show that Libertarians really DO care about freedom... even if the economic aspects of that doctrine really aren't practical.

	22-12-2003 11:45									#72
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My religion is personal, and I believe that freedom is more important when it comes to how I deal with others. Therefore, if I have to choose between my religious beliefs and individual liberty as a basis for law, I'll choose individual liberty 100% of the time.

	22-12-2003 12:01									#73
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My religion is personal, and I believe that freedom is more important when it comes to how I deal with others. Therefore, if I have to choose between my religious beliefs and individual liberty as a basis for law, I'll choose individual liberty 100% of the time.

HEATHEN!

	22-12-2003 12:21									#74
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That individual liberty mantra, of course, includes economic freedom

	22-12-2003 12:33									#75
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That individual liberty mantra, of course, includes economic freedom

see... this is why we need more political parties in this damn country. It seems too many people have views that conflict with each party. But the Demoncrats and the Repukes have polarized politics so that no matter what, at least one of the two wins... and corporate America controls both of the parties.

BWAHHHHHHHH I WANT A PARLIAMENTARY POLITICAL SYSTEM!!!

	22-12-2003 13:46									#76
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"It's a two party system. You HAVE to vote for one of us! :evil laugh:"

::Ross Perot punches hat::

"Don't blame me! I voted for Kodos"

	22-12-2003 14:07									#77
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quote: EDIT: Arrrh. VJ's Very Obscure Chain of Logic (tm) -- > Everything what the 'not normal' group is wanting to do is actually 'normal', therefore

What the **** is this...profess a chain of logic and then start with a contradiction

	22-12-2003 14:34									#78
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I think there is growing consensus that the courts have gone way too far in pushing the social envelop against the wishes of the majority in matters that really do not involve constitutional issues. By defining the so-called right of privacy to be both in the constitution and a fundamental right, the courts are legislating their particular views on social matters through "substantive due process" which was roundly criticized in the legal community as being a false doctrine just prior to the court announcing Roe v. Wade, which we all have to admit, is the most aggressive "substantive due process" case in history.

If we were to provide a constitutional amendment, I would prefer to address the underlying problem - substantive due process. Get rid of it.

	22-12-2003 15:24									#79
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Why do you have such a problem with substantive due process? What you fail to understand is that, at least in the context of this thread, marriage affects no one but those entering the union and possibly their offspring - likewise, gay marriage does not effect anyone but those entering the union - so why should it matter what the 'majority' thinks about the issue. If the majority of Americans think that Christianity is the one true religion, does that mean that we should all convert?

Absurd...

	22-12-2003 15:30									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Sava No, people on the right try and make it Democrats vs religion... but it's not. It's lunatic, ignorant, bigoted Christians versus everyone else. These people hate freedom and they are so afraid that their dopey brand of religion is losing followers that they want to turn this country into a Christian nation.

Sava said my opinion exactly. You don't see that every day. But not very tactfully.

	22-12-2003 22:38									#81
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Christians? the majority of Muslims are opposed to gay marriage as well.

	22-12-2003 22:50									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Isn't anything more just paranoia-based overkill? How is it "paranoia-based"? Gay marriage has already been legalized in Canada and several US states are moving towards it. Seems like a pretty compelling reason to think that the traditional definition of marriage is being changed, something that many people do not approve of and would like to see stopped.

The legislate against it. It's a perversion of the intent of the US Constitution to address trivia such as family relationships and social values by the Constitution. The only time that was done (18th Amendment) ends up looking pretty damned silly when you come along and get to the 21st Amendment.

	22-12-2003 23:19									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Christians? the majority of Muslims are opposed to gay marriage as well.

yeah, but they aren't as much of a problem... Ashcroft is doing a good job deporting them...

	23-12-2003 09:32									#84
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quote: The legislate against it. It's a perversion of the intent of the US Constitution to address trivia such as family relationships and social values by the Constitution. The only time that was done (18th Amendment) ends up looking pretty damned silly when you come along and get to the 21st Amendment.

I agree with your sentiments, as I would much rather see both sides handle this issue through legislation. Unfortunately, we're far beyond that at this point. You can't condemn the anti-gay marriage folks for putting things into the Constitution that don't belong there when the pro-gay marriage folks are pressuring the courts to come up with "rights" in the Constitution that don't belong there, either. Both sides are perverting the Constitution and as much as you or I would like to see it stopped, I think we can both agree that it isn't going to.

	23-12-2003 09:37									#85
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You know -- I have no need to create a gay-issues thread.

This is what -- the second or third gay-oriented thread created by someone else recently?





So is Park Avenue advocating the tyranny of the majority?

And about this argument that sexual orientation may not be a choice, but you can still choose whom you have sex with?

Starchild and others seem to have brought forward good counter-arguments to that bit, but I want to add that I cannot fathom why it would ever be justifiable for other people to dictate sex lives between two mutually consenting, competent adults.

	23-12-2003 09:43									#86
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quote: I cannot fathom why it would ever be justifiable for other people to dictate sex lives between two mutually consenting, competent adults.

what does that have to do with gay marriage though?

	23-12-2003 09:59									#87
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The refusal to legally recognize gay marriage is based on the bigoted, biased perception that sex between two people of same gender is not acceptable.

So this way, society is attempting to dictate individuals' sex lives.

	23-12-2003 10:07									#88
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Marriage has nothing to do with one's sex life. Just ask all the married guys on the board.

	23-12-2003 10:11									#89
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marriage is a mental, spiritual, and emotional union of a man and a woman and is thus on an entirely different level than the purely physical act which is sex.

	23-12-2003 10:31									#90
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So then why are heterosexuals who oppose marriage so hung up on the physical aspect when opposing recognition of gay marriages?

It seems that their opposition is based on their repugnance towards sex between two people of same gender.