24-12-2003 06:21									#1
	Updated Traits Ranking (C3C) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I play on Emperor level.

These rankings can differ greatly depending on map size and difficulty level. So please list your map preference and difficulty setting you play on when ranking the traits.

Here is my trait ranking now:

1. Seafaring

2. Religious

3. Industrius

4. Agricultural

5. Militaristic

6. Scientific

7. Expansionist

The first trait IMO is far and away the best.

Traits 2-4 are close and depending on your playstyle and preference any one of these can be #2 for you. It is almost a tie between 2-4 depends on your preference.

There is a big droppoff and traits 5-6 are much worse than 2-4 IMO.

Trait 7 is far and away the worst (for reasons I explain below).

1. Seafaring is basically like getting the great library for free..you get an epoch of tech and cash for free...unbelievable. I love this trait. You are first to contact the civs..the amount of cash and tech this trait generates for you on higher difficulty levels is unbelievable.

2. Religious. This has been covered in many posts. This trait is great for higher levels Emperor-Sid. Less useful on low levels. I like the convenience of switching between war-time and peace-time govs in 1 turn.

3. Industrious. Many think this is the best trait, it's good but I can get by without it..still a strong trait. I enjoy it and there are many good threads on this (read The Virtues of being Industrious).

4. Growth is good so Agricultural is a great trait. It would be higher but on the high levels a ton of fast growth just leads to happiness problems. It can be good for rexing and icsing. If you like rapid expansion many might make this the #2 trait and I really cant argue with them.

5. I used to like this trait but I haven't been able to get MGL's with Elites with C3C. Either this is a bug or MGL generation has been greatly curtailed for C3C. After 2 games with no MGL Gen I am convinced I can;t generate them anymore. One game I fought over 150 battles with an Elite unit (counted) and as germany (militasristic) NO MGL. I kinda gave up on this trait after that. It used to be #1 for me.

6. Scientific is weak on high levels. You will be trading for your techs until well into the middle ages..you will not be outresearching AI on emperor or above.

7. This trait is map dependent and opponent dependent. If you play smaller maps and get alot of expansionist opponents (highkly likely since large # of civs are expansionist) this trait is very, very bad. I play standard maps with random opponents. I hate Expansionist. Always have, always will. A total waste for a trait and sadly Firaxis gives this trait to most of the civs in it's 2 expansions. So I won't get to play most of them. I stopped playing civs with this trait.

Some argue you can find oppnents early with this and explore the map for resources. If you want to do that get seafaring or research the wheel and get chariots. A very weak argument for using this trait IMO.

This trait can be powerful if you play larger maps and select non expansionist opponents (which I don't, thats almost like cheating and cheesy to me) So for standard maps with random opponents this is a very bad trait. Other expansionist civs will beat you out of huts anyway. You will be lucky to get a handful of huts on Emperor with this. On smaller maps with other expansionist oppoennts you will get bery few huts other expansionist civs will pop them before you (AI knows were they are).

So if you want to pick your opponents, and/or play with a small number of opponents and play on large maps. This trait can be #1 in that case.

For the maps I play it is dead last. I just don't like this trait.

Last edited by Artifex on 24-12-2003 at 06:33

	24-12-2003 06:28									#2
	Got spare money?

i tried seafaring and i can't stop using it now. that bonus trade in the capital alone gets you a first tech 5-10 turns quicker. it's insane.

	24-12-2003 06:38									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

I was screwing around with a Scandy game over the weekend, pre-BETA.

Seafaring is indeed awesome. And militaristic DOESN'T SUCK, you just had a bad run, Artifex, but Armies are now too important not to shoot for. I missed both industrious and religious in a big way, though (REL, especially, as I am specifically trying to play games with 2 government changes due to some AU considerations).

	24-12-2003 08:00									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i personally find all the traits just as good, well nearly.

seafaring is really nice, being able to contact most civs early on is a big plus.

I also like scientific, just for the cheaper library/university build (cheaper culture!), and that free tech at each age. ever notice how dearly the AI holds nationalism? Getting it for free is a great way to enter the industrial age.

I also like militaristic, if i get a random civ that has it (like rome for example) I take advantage of the cheap barracks and pump out units. is that extra mobility point for armies a C3C feature only?

and the commercial trait is really good too! corruption is so much lower, which is great when you conquer lots of cities, if you play a military/commercial civ.

	24-12-2003 09:58									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I like them all- I can't decide.

	24-12-2003 18:01									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Seafaring Rules Indeed.
I’m playing with the Spanish right now.
The quick access to other civs and their technologies combing with the all-powerful religious trait makes a very comfortable civ
Too bad they have a useless UU

	24-12-2003 19:13									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Artifex, where is the commercial trait in your rankings?

I play on Monarch, with the same map specifics as you do, random standard, and I truly love the agricultural trait. Just having so much food early on is so good.
My ranking would be:
1. Agricultural
2/3/4/5 Commercial, Seafaring, Militaristic, Religious
6. Industrious
7. Scientific
8. Expansionist

	24-12-2003 19:25									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm addicted to Carthage right now. I know a lot of folks have a hard time with the extra shield-cost of the Merc, but I just love seafaring + industrious. Careful with your wonders, though.

	24-12-2003 19:50									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Generalissimo Too bad they have a useless UU

Not hardly. This is the best pillager in the game. An army of them can pillage 9 tiles in a turn.

I know I am in the minority, but I rank Expansionistic up in the top traits category (maybe not number one, but in the top 3).

	24-12-2003 20:14									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Frankly at this point I'm not sure I can rank the traits, I find all of them obscenely useful. My least favorite are commercial and scientific but I play with those civs now and again.

I used to use religious and expansionists as a crutch, but no longer. (maybe if the Iroq's were the same then....)

	24-12-2003 20:50									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I play Emperor and above and I like rapid production and expansion. So Mayans Agr + Ind were natural best combination for me. Also Carthage Sea+ Ind another excellent choice. I agree with observations on diminshed power of Militaristic. Commercial does not seem to have the same effect as it did pre-c3c either. I'm only interested in a civ that has Agr, Sea, or Ind as one or more of its traits.

	24-12-2003 22:54									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Commercial does not seem to have the same effect as it did pre-c3c either.

Are you talking pre-beta-patch or post-beta-patch?
Pre-beta patch, corruption was so messed up that I don't think you can judge Commercial just yet.

	25-12-2003 15:47									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Not hardly. This is the best pillager in the game. An army of them can pillage 9 tiles in a turn

It really depends on game style, the whole warfare thingy in civ3 is so one-dimensional that is quite pointless to waste shields on pillagers when you can route those shields to knights and cavalry.
Besides, im going to conquer the city anyway, the resistance and the possibility of culture flipping is bad enough, Rebuilding the infrastructure is a major waste of time IMO.

	26-12-2003 06:14									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Seafaring is dead last imo.

As said, it all depends on playstyle.
I just don't think getting one extra gold at the start really makes seafaring that hot. Ofcourse you can research faster at the start. But after a shortwhile it becomes a useless trait IMO.

I think most traits are about equal, with expansionist and seafaring being situational traits, great on certain maps and settings, but in most cases ... crap
I've gotten tons of free techs with expansionist before, but on most maps, the AI gets to the goodies before you do.

Great leaders are fairly common in my experience, I've gotten tons of 'em in my last game with Ottomans. Had 4 armies of ancient cav, knights and sipahi running around, awesome!
I also had several sgl's, one of which I used for a tech golden age which helped me research several techs at 4 turns while raking in the cash, awesome as well.

	26-12-2003 08:18									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Generalissimo It really depends on game style, the whole warfare thingy in civ3 is so one-dimensional that is quite pointless to waste shields on pillagers when you can route those shields to knights and cavalry.

Since you choose to make it one dimensional by not building pillagers, I guess it is for you. My play style involves removing their strategic resources and luxuries in the first turn or two of combat if at all possible and then go for the cities.

	26-12-2003 17:06									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Since you choose to make it one dimensional by not building pillagers, I guess it is for you. My play style involves removing their strategic resources and luxuries in the first turn or two of combat if at all possible and then go for the cities.

Good strategy, with the randomness of combat you need every advantage you can get.
Taking their luxuries is something I always try to do, because I know it would set me back if they did it to me, and I figure the AI is only human(ly programmed)

	26-12-2003 19:07									#17
	Remove this text

I love the Conquistadors; often I run Republics/Democracies and aim for short wars that set the enemy back but I hate bothering with conquered cities for the most part.

I'm having great fun as the Portuguese at the moment, Seaf. and Exp. means you get early contacts on any kind of map....

In answer to the original question

1 Seafaring/Expansionist
depending on map, but early contact is vital especially in higher difficulty levels. And exploring is fun. And post-Magellan speed 8 transports and speed 10 destroyers are *lots* of fun.

3 Militaristic
I love the new armies

4 Religious
Cheap culture and contentment plus easy gov switches

5 Scientific
It's hard to get a tech lead on higher levels but Scientific can keep you in the race, and SGLs rock.

6 Industrious
Effective but boring

7 Commercial
Why doesn't Commercial provide cheap banks?

8 Agricultural
Both boring and doesn't fit with my playstyle - I don't enjoy REXing at the expense of core development and at higher levels the unhappiness eats away at the benefit of rapid growth.

Last edited by geniemalin on 26-12-2003 at 19:14

	26-12-2003 20:06									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Not hardly. This is the best pillager in the game. An army of them can pillage 9 tiles in a turn.

nice catch!

	27-12-2003 02:04									#19
	Remove this text

I would rank commercial #6.

	27-12-2003 02:31									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Commercial doesn't provide cheap banks? Hmm.. that IS interesting. Never noticed that.

Personnally, I'd really love to see Commercial provide cheap Colloseums. I mean, isn't entertainment a staple of the commercial industry?

	27-12-2003 03:13									#21
	Put an end to popups!

I am getting seriously addicted to the agricultural trait.

Currently playing as the Sumerians on a standard continents map at monarch. First city had a lot of desert - no problem. Cities 2-4 on rivers/lakes. Result - I outexpanded the Chinese and wiped them out to own the biggest continent.

About 40% of the continent is so corrupt (pre-patch) as to be unuseable but that extra food from the city tile is enough to support an extra specialist in some cities so what would be a useless one food for non-agricultural civs turns into a civil engineer or taxman or scientist.

Yes, it is great for REXing but can also make cities that bit more productive. Definitely a top 2 trait if not the outright best.

	27-12-2003 04:56									#22
	Remove this text

I'm starting to re-assess the traits completely, if the new resource distribution and FP effects (or lack thereof) are here to stay.

REL (temples), MIL (harbors), and COM seem to grow in importance.

	27-12-2003 05:54									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It is situational.........all of the traits are good in the right circumstances.

I have to agree with Seafaring is powerful right now.

	27-12-2003 11:20									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hmmm... Byzantines builds the great lighthouse.

5 MOVE DORMONS!!! (an offensive ancient age bombarding transport)

	27-12-2003 11:33									#25
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm starting to re-assess the traits completely, if the new resource distribution and FP effects (or lack thereof) are here to stay. REL (temples), MIL (harbors), and COM seem to grow in importance.

Doesn't SEA give cheap harbors now, not MIL?

	27-12-2003 18:56									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

it's interesting how most people don't appreciate commercial. it was and still is my favourite trait. used wisely, you can get an extra ring of productive cities. the extra commerce in ALL cities (not just coastal one) helps a lot towards money, research and specially happiness (it's sometimes just the little differece between needing 10% instead of 20% luxury level). also nice: it's good on every map. expansionist is useless on smaller maps, agricultural has no point without fresh water, militaristic is not a builders must-have, etc.
and best of all: you start with alphabet (ok ok ok, so does seafaring). which gives you a great chance at getting writing, philosophy and literature first.

which brings me to scientific: also underestimated. i didn't play sci-civs for a very long time. but in C3C it's so much better. SGLs are a lot easier to get and since one of the PTW-patches you get a random tech and not just the same one always (i used to get monotheism and nationalism every time). and i had totally forgot how nice it is to have 40-shield libraries (3 culture instead of 2 of temples)...

i havn't tried seaf(e)aring enough to really estimate it's power, and my agricultural started (i often stop if the game gets boring) games seldom were overwhelming.

my list

1 commercial
2 industrious, toned down, but still nice.
3 scientific
4 agricultural (*)
5 seafaring (*)
6 religious, although 8-turn-anarchies DO hurt uch:
7 militaristic, nice, but i can live without
8 expansionistic (*), with agricultural starting with pottery too, i hardly feel like choosing EXP.
(*) : depending of the map... there are cases where these can be best or worst.


off-topic: has chopping down forrests been made cheaper? suddenly, it's faster to clear them that to build roads through them...???

	27-12-2003 19:22									#27
	Put an end to popups!

1. Agricultural
2. Religious
3. Industrious
4. Commercial
5. Seafaring
6. Scientific
7. Expansionist
8. Militaristic

5, 6 and 7 can be lumped together, as well as 3 and 4.

	29-12-2003 17:35									#28
	Got spare money?

wow, in my yesterdays started game (netherlands), agricultural is just great. i started in the middle of a rivery and deserty region... perfect ground for me. and i've even got a settler factory in the desert, thanks to enough oasis' )

too bad there were 2 other agricultural civs on my continent

	29-12-2003 19:57									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Overall, I think the traits are pretty nicely balanced now. As can be seen by the wide variety of responses here, there is no clear-cut best trait.

My list:

Scientific (I love those SGL's!)
Agricultural (the early boost is very nice)
Industrious
Expansionist (never underestimate the power of an early free settler)
Religious (they nerfed this one when they changed it from 1-turn anarchy to 2-turns)
Seafaring
Commercial (give us cheaper marketplaces and banks! we demand it!)
Militaristic (can live without it)

On my list, the top 3 are pretty much interchangable, as are 4 and 5.

	29-12-2003 23:47									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i'll make my list formal.

1. Religious
2. Militaristic
3. Seafaring
4. Industrious
5. Expansionist
6. Agricultural
7. Commercial
8. Scientific