24-12-2003 06:41									#1
	what should I do differently in MP v. SP? Got spare money?

Until recently, I have played only SP. I'm OK -- I win at deity, but sometimes conquest takes me until 1900 -- obviously I'm no great shakes. Recently I played a PBEM game with SlowThinker, and I got my butt kicked.

I would like to play some MP. What should I do differently to adjust my game to human opponents?

(Maybe this thread should go in the MP forum, but I'm really attached to this one and I hate to see it languishing like this. Besides, whatever I do to adjust to MP, it will probably help my SP game too.)

	25-12-2003 06:20									#2
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First just be yourself! Everyone has their own playing style and I do well with some and others I really have to adjust what I call my comfort zone. I'm a science guy so when I'm playing a war dude I focus on production as well so I can kepp up with units.


Jon....the guy that is always looking for a MP game
roudebush@aol.com if you want to begin one.

	31-12-2003 06:55									#3
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Jon, do you have ICQ.

The biggest difference in MP, is expand expand expand. Against the AI, you don't need to make expansion a priority. Of course, against the AI, you don't need to do a lot of things. But, sometimes a real early horse rush will work similar to SP, but if your opponent is prepared, you're toast.

The other difference is defense. Coordinated attacks require a difference defensive strat. Human players will unload multiple units from multiple ships to surprise your core cities. The AI will never do that. Human players will use instant forts and march up to your cities along rivers or roads. The AI will never do that.

There are many many differences that you will need to experience. As stated different players use different strats. I would suggest using multiple strats, since a predictable human is just as bad as the AI.

	01-01-2004 04:54									#4
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Rah: Ming gave me the web site for the icq and I downloaded it but really could not figure it out. I have a played a couple who I could add to my AOL buddy list. I would like to play with you guys because I think I could learn alot. Any help or email me at roudebush@aol.com to set up a game.

	08-01-2004 00:42									#5
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The difference between playing AI or humans is that most humans actualy think about their next moves and dont just follow their programming.

	08-01-2004 02:17									#6
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debeest - a few things from my experience:

1) Explore, explore, explore! Build embassies. Knowledge is power.
2) Most good MP players seem to use black clicking and city triangulation (this is one of the major things that turned me off on MP). Learn how to use these tricks.
3) Even more than SP, the best defense is a good offense. If you attack the other guy's horse, you'll probably win. A horse in a forest can be very helpful in guarding your borders.
4) Settlers work twice as fast on their first turn, so they can build a road on clear terrain in one turn. Your roads can be very helpful for getting your horses into position, but be prepared to pillage them if your enemy is in position to use them.
5) Beware of diplomats. The "sabotage production" option may wipe out your wonder (your opponent will know where you're building wonders from the city info), a key structure, or a defender you were rushbuilding.
6) Good MP players move really fast. Try not to let yourself get out of sync by trying to move too fast, but be aware that you may have trouble getting games if people perceive you as a "slow" player. A good connection is helpful here - I used a dialup and had long pauses between moves sometimes (but things moved very smoothly other times). Learn to do city maintenance during the other guy's moves.
7) Early expansion is key: build cities as fast as you can.
8) 2x production is a completely different game from 1x; play some 2x production in single player test games to get used to how it works if you can't find anyone to play 1x.
9) 2x movement is even more different. I didn't like it, but some people won't play anything else.
10) Be prepared for stress like you have never experienced in SP. The last few turns before you finish your key wonder, or land your four elephants in the other guy's soft underbelly, are more exciting than anything you'll see in SP.
11) Beware of barbs. My opinion is that barbs are more common in MP than SP; maybe it's just because of smaller maps. Raging barbs can be a serious threat in the early game, or you may never see one.

	08-01-2004 08:22									#7
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Thanks, DaveV. It's good to hear from an SP master about which differences he finds important. I've never liked black-clicking and city triangulation either, but ST used the latter effectively against me, so I can see I'll have to practice it. I hadn't thought about the 2x thing at all, having never tried it and not liking the idea. And the first-turn settler speed is news to me; that should be useful sometimes.

Do you explore with warriors? I don't want to send horses out to get snuffed by the first people they meet, and I want to explore before phalanxes are available.

	08-01-2004 17:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Do you explore with warriors? I don't want to send horses out to get snuffed by the first people they meet, and I want to explore before phalanxes are available.

No, usually with horses. You have to get to the huts first, and horses move faster. And your goal is to do the snuffing rather than be snuffed!

	09-01-2004 18:59									#9
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Debeest -- I too have only played a handful of MP games, all in the RAH Rules group (2x prod, 1x move). Those guys will gladly confirm I'm no great shakes. (Based on your first post, debeest, we are at similar levels of SP play.)

--Re warrior exploration -- I use 1-2 of these early, but they're looking for trade specials as much as huts. If you wait for horsie tech to explore (assuming no 2-move units from huts), it's already too late.

--Trade specials are critical because early science means early monarchy, which you must have to be competitive.

--The other need to enhance early science is early cities. After every game, the improvement advice I always hear from Ming/rah/et al is -- expand, expand, expand! (I believe the rah goal is 4 cities by 3000bc, Mon by 2850 at the above settings.)

--If you're a PC user, get and use the HutFinder program! (We poor Mac folk have no such tool. ) Needed for a level playing field against experienced players.

--While hut-popping is great, beware getting off the tech path to Monarchy. Some discretion is needed.

--Playing speed issues mentioned above plague me. Last game, I felt I did a great job of knowing what I wanted to do in advance, doing my city maintenance during other folks' turns, and getting my turn done quickly and accurately. Yet I still got complaints about my playing speed. Yes, I'm on a dial-up and lag is noticeably worse, but the bottom line is, the experienced players do play very, uh, briskly -- especially in the beginning, which is virtually automatic for them.

--In contrast to DaveV's post, my experience is that massive city defense (usually with phalanxes) is critical in competitive, small world MP games.

--After your first couple cities, be very wary of sending out an unguarded Settler, especially into new territory. Early loss of a city or Sett means you're pretty much screwed.

--The early game is a land-grab. Stake out your territory, control the chokepoints, and backfill with new cities later.

--In general, you should plan to settle on much harsher ( = defensive) terrain than in SP. against the AI, max growth and beakers come from nice grassland squares amid specials. In MP, your cites had better have defensive bonuses or they will be TOAST.

--In 2x production, it's very common to see ppl settle on a mountain, since starvation is not usually a problem. (In 2x1x, best location for your capital would be on a Gold special.) My fave city spot in MP is river-forest -- production, science, defense and transportation all in one.

Last thought -- I do recommend you play often, and you'll find Rah's games fun and instructive. MP is a huge rush compared to the sure-win SP game, and the players tend to be pretty cool cats...

(OK, enough prattling from the MP novice.)

	11-01-2004 05:47									#10
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Thanks, Jrabbit. It's so useful to hear where the emphasis needs to shift. Hutfinder, like black-clicking, I've never used. It feels a bit wrong, but I guess I'd better get used to it. And I think I'll need to practice 2x by myself before I try MP; I don't want to have all these new things hit me at once.

I know people play MP games with anywhere from two to seven players, but what's most common? Are most games full or nearly full?

	11-01-2004 20:44									#11
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Rah's games (Fri and Sat eves, US Central) are done on "small rock" worlds. They usually involve 3-4 ppl and most often play "one night stands" -- meaning no continuation, so a big emphasis on early and mid-game. And a big emphasis on war.

As for the others, I haven't played them, but the continuation games generally are played on big maps with 5-7 players committing to the game.

Watch the threads in the C2MP forum to get a feel for these groups and how they work. Hope to be in a game with you in the near future.

	11-01-2004 21:55									#12
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This seems like great fun, what software is needed for Civ 2 mp, just the basic game and some patch?

	12-01-2004 06:52									#13
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You need the CIV2 Multiplayer Gold Edition (MGE). You can get it on eBay for $5-10 usually, and probably for a comparable price through lots of other sources including this site.

MGE allows you to play in group on-line games, hotseat games, and play-by-email games. The game itself is virtually identical, although there are some tiny differences such as a much more hostile and aggressive AI (no smarter, though).

MGE also includes two collections of scenarios, Conflicts in Civilization and Fantastic Worlds.

	20-01-2004 20:38									#14
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Number of players varies. In the huge diplo games they like as many as possible. On the smaller worlds, it is my opinion that 4 is the optimal number. It provides enough opponents without taking too long for each turn. If it takes 5 minutes for a turn prior to 3000, you're not going to enjoy the game. Four players is about right for wonder chasing. One person doesn't usually get them all.

	21-01-2004 03:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by rah If it takes 5 minutes for a turn prior to 3000, you're not going to enjoy the game.

If it takes less than 5 minutes for a turn prior to 3000, you're confused and not going to enjoy the game.

	21-01-2004 10:22									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That's one thing I'm a little worried about too.

	21-01-2004 21:38									#17
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Prior to 3200, You have two cities, two or three units exploring units, there isn't a whole lot to be thinking about. Not many decisions here folks.

General exploring.
Finding huts.
Getting to monarchy.
Kicking out a few settlers.
If this takes longer than 5 minutes for 4 people.........

If anything else is cluttering your mind at this point, you should stick to playing SP.

	21-01-2004 22:17									#18
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ST, I'm anticipating that you'll jump in here with a list of things for people to think about at the beginning of the game....

	22-01-2004 00:11									#19
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And once I read it, I'll repeat my statement.

	22-01-2004 11:45									#20
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ST,

I guess you've chosen the right Apolyton alias, at least according to rah et al.

I don't mind playing that slow; I can read a good book while you, eh, micromanage your early empire.

Maybe we can get a game going sometime this late summer/early fall (the earliest that I can play )?

Carolus

	22-01-2004 14:35									#21
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But won't you (or those responsible for the bill) be paying for your internet connection all the time ST is er, slowly thinking?

Now I love reading as much as the next oaf who came out of university with a nigh-worthless degree in English and French literature, but not if I was paying for a net connection at the same time. Of course, in these salad days of broadband, then you may be one of the lucky few who can stay connected all day and still pay a flat fee, but not me Daddy-o!

	22-01-2004 15:24									#22
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At home I've been on-line via modem until now, but that will have to change. Don't know how many times I've been disconnected and not been able to get back on-line to continue playing...

Oaf, salad days?

Carolus

	22-01-2004 18:27									#23
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Yes, broadband is great, but I wouldn't think of using it as an excuse to play slowly.

An effort to plan how every unit is going to be moved prior to each turn can speed up the game greatly. It is understood that things can change based on what happens during the turn which may require a little extra thought, but thinking ahead saves time.

In one game, a player had just settled both cities and had 0 units. Their next turn took 4 minutes with no units to move. I don't care what they were thinking about, it shouldn't take that long.

	22-01-2004 18:50									#24
	Got spare money?

Yes, the key is to stay engaged in the game you're playing. Plan your next moves, count your beakers, realign workers, etc. while the others take their turns.

If you like to do early perfectionism, I agree that it should not be done at the expense of noticeably slowing down the game. I don't have the experience that some of these hardcore players have, but find the game much more fun when I make an effort to maintian the rhythm of things.

In the later going, it's understood that there are more things to do, and that kingchat negotiations may delay a decision. but on the other hand, everyone's turns are taking longer, so you have time to rushbuy etc. during the other players' turns.

Reading? Like I said, it's all about getting into the game's rhythm and staying tuned in.

	22-01-2004 19:51									#25
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Reading?

Not even Solo's unabridged MP strategy guide?

I agree with you about "being in the game". I never did other things when I played MP in the past (although you might think so judging from my play!), but if ST is looking for a game and has trouble finding opponents, then why not?

Maybe I'm overly optimistic about reading while playing, but it's worth a try. Surfing Apolyton might do as well...

Carolus

	22-01-2004 20:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yes, broadband is great, but I wouldn't think of using it as an excuse to play slowly.

Hm... I seem to recall having read somewhere about someone who fell asleep while playing... Or was it not coming back after a smoke (or some beers?)? Or both?

Yes, of course broadband isn't an excuse to play slowly. Strange logic!

Carolus

	22-01-2004 20:17									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Oaf, salad days?

Oaf means idiot, fool.
Salad days comes from Shakespeare's Antony & Cleopatra (appropriately for Civ ), and basically refers to youth. I meant that broadband is still new, and hasn't established itself fully as the automatic choice of internet users.

	22-01-2004 20:29									#28
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English and French literature indeed! Although I do not know my Shakespeare nearly as well as I ought to (except, perhaps, for Hamlet), I dare say that "Daddy-o" is from no play of his...

Carolus

	22-01-2004 20:50									#29
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'In one game, a player had just settled both cities and had 0 units. Their next turn took 4 minutes with no units to move. I don't care what they were thinking about, it shouldn't take that long.'

This is why I do not play MP. i can not sit at the desk for 5 hours to do what takes 60 seconds during a SP game.

	22-01-2004 22:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Hm... I seem to recall having read somewhere about someone who fell asleep while playing... Or was it not coming back after a smoke (or some beers?)? Or both? Yes, of course broadband isn't an excuse to play slowly. Strange logic! Carolus

Smokes and beers are the equivalent of using the bathroom -- basic human needs!