20-02-2004 13:41									#271
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Ok - I did your hill fort test on DEITY; and the results were near exactly as I described. The modern inf average out with less than 35 added hp though - with about 1.5 howiters winning the battle. The difference here would near perfectly conclude that the pike flag does NOT work for modern inf against later units

So I'm therefore assuming that in SP - Deity level gives a 1.0 proportion of attack realism on real calculated outcomes. Emperor would give an example 0.9 (in human favour), King a 0.8, etc.

I do not know if this is indeed the case in MP, but you would think the programmers were smart enough to set it at a blank 1.0 for ALL difficulty levels when multiplaying. Otherwise we may have a factor where attack initiated probabilities are heightened for every player; or perhaps even where defense is heightened too and everything works out. Hopefully we can bank on a 1.0 for Emperor as well as Deity levels..

So then.. time to do the math for an apparent static 6 defense to see if it equals out. If so - increasing modern infantry defense to 9 would be a plausible outcome

	20-02-2004 13:57									#272
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Im starting to think the pike flag is a dud also. I just did some larger scale tests under the HOTW4 rules, and there doesn't appear to be any difference between the mech infantry, and the modern infantry......even though they have the same defense, before the bonus.


But heres the thing.....the pike flag only changes the scenario from a 12:9 scenario to a 12:12 scenario.

In the 12:9 scenario.....which is 4:3, leads to 11 damage on the howies. The 12:12 scenario should lead to 15 damage.....but its hard to tell.

	20-02-2004 14:00									#273
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Increasing the base (non-bonus) defense of a defensive unit has more effect than you might first think.

Since, if it was 6 before, it forified to 9.

If its 9 now, it fortifies to 13.5

So.....I don't think we should increase the defense all the way to 9......

	20-02-2004 14:26									#274
	Second trial - with pike flag assumed broken Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

On assumed 1.0 Deity factor

Modern Inf: 6 real defense vs Mobile 155's static 12 attack
%50 fortify bonus (by BASE defense of 6) is added = 6+3
%100 terrain bonus (by BASE defense of 6) is added = 9+6
%100 fortress bonus (") is added = 15+6

21 defense vs 12 attack

Modern inf has %64 chance of each hit - 3 hits needed for kill
Mobile 155mm has %36 chance of each hit - 2 hits needed for kill

*Over time - average leftover for modern inf should be 5.5; for howitzer 3.x (no clue)
5.5/30hp x10 = 55 hp total (out of ten defending units)
3.x/30hp x10 = 3* hp total (")

Session 1

48hp all remaining Infantry
35hp all remaining Howitzers

5 infantry killed
5 howitzers killed


Session 2

58hp all Inf
15hp all How

3 infantry killed
7 howitzers killed


Session 3

38hp all Inf
28hp all How

5 infantry killed
5 howitzers killed



Session 4

40hp all Inf
27hp all How

3 infantry killed
7 howitzers killed



Slightly more flattering for the Infantry, yet with crude calculations.. all in all I'm now convinced the pike flag doesn't work - as cyrion says

What do we do, raise modern inf to a defense of 8?

	20-02-2004 14:28									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Frank Johnson Increasing the base (non-bonus) defense of a defensive unit has more effect than you might first think. Since, if it was 6 before, it forified to 9. If its 9 now, it fortifies to 13.5 So.....I don't think we should increase the defense all the way to 9......

ugh.. so how are we sure where the unit bonuses level out to; if they're calculated in halfs, are rounded up to the whole - etc

If they round - I'd say a defense of 7, of course altering the mech infantry back somewhere

	20-02-2004 15:03									#276
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why not just remove the howies from the game it only one unit and seems to be the only unstoppalble one, that way no other units need modding .

	20-02-2004 15:15									#277
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k - on test, going with 7. Most of them lose fortified on rivers, but every single remaining howizter is immobile dog meat for the following counter turn. The inf do REALLY well fortified on simple hills.

Armor
10/5
3 HP 1FP
3 moves
80 shields

Mobile 155mm (new Howitzer)
12/2
3 HP 2FP
2 moves
80 shields
Ignores city walls

Modern infantry
6/7
3 HP 1 FP
1 move
60 shields

Mech infantry
7/6
3 HP 1 FP
3 moves
60 shields

MLRS 14/2 (comes with Robotics, as well)
3 HP 2FP
1 move
120 shields
Ignores city walls

Not like any of that is in effect or matters for tommorrow's game. At all. Ah well, that was fun.

Attachment: testagainst5.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

	20-02-2004 15:16									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin why not just remove the howies from the game it only one unit and seems to be the only unstoppalble one, that way no other units need modding .

because artillery is a hugely significant part of modern warfare

	20-02-2004 17:33									#279
	Put an end to popups!

OK, I did a quick check (even if my answer didn't seem to interest you ):

the pike advantage is a 50% bonus against units with one hitpoint and a movement of two.

So there's nos surprise it didn't work against the Howitzer!

	20-02-2004 20:13									#280
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Hey Cyron, you want to play the Greeks?

	20-02-2004 23:22									#281
	Remove this text

Reduce attack of howitzers to 10.

	21-02-2004 03:02									#282
	Inflate your Upload Space

And movement of one. this discussed in Rah Rules by War4 way back along with limiting spies because od spy blitzes that destroy all your improvements. But not added to Rah Rules I don't think.

	21-02-2004 07:10									#283
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Ozzy - you find your own sub, at LEAST give concrete notice, or you stay with the group. Is that not common sense in decency? Deciding to leave the arriving group 15 minutes prior to session is just ridiculous, at best

Last edited by Zylka on 21-02-2004 at 07:28

	21-02-2004 07:25									#284
	Absolutely WOW. Got spare money?

Unbelievable.. Dylan gave heads up for tonight, I guess ljube is somewhat excusable as he'd wake up with a phone call - I mean even when I missed a session it was because I was suddenly THROWN IN JAIL for the night

Yet Ozzy - MR. DIPLOMACY decides to drop out of the session while in the middle of participating in the story thread, simply telling us to "find a sub"? Gee bud, I'm so sorry things aren't going your own special way in the game, but you DON'T f* the scheduled group so damned casually like that. It's especially pathetic when you claim to stand for all these "diplomatic" ideals of working things out; you know - player integrity

I'm incredibly dissapointed to see this kind of behavior from YOU of all. In any case - see you all (hopefully) next week. If adversity proves too much; fair enough. Just please find a quality and consistent sub prior to our scheduled play time

	21-02-2004 07:28									#285
	Got spare money?

I said last week I was leaving the game.

	21-02-2004 07:30									#286
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You also said you would play if you couldn't find a sub. You also participated in the bloody character thread AN HOUR AGO. You have also apparently been pretending to be offline on ICQ

That's really, really impressive Alex. Integrity at it's best.

	21-02-2004 07:36									#287
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I was looking forward to playing this week.

	21-02-2004 07:49									#288
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I said last week I was leaving the game.

You casually said you were thinking about leaving the game. I said don't. You didn't confirm you had decided to leave either.

Besides, how can you participate in a great diplo like this and then CASUALLY decide to leave!?

WE were all really looking forward to this and are all worried that the game will fold.

It totally sux. The civ world is collapsing. Too many quitters (planned post ponements are fine if you have personal issues)

I'M INCREDIBLY DISAPPOINTED YOUNG MAN!

	21-02-2004 07:50									#289
	Got spare money?

I'll give Dylan the benefit of the doubt until we know his story for not showing.

	21-02-2004 07:56									#290
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Dylan did give considerable and unwaivering notice, although it would have been nice for himself to arrange sub for tonight

Really, I dunno.. well - I'm going to be roleplaying a bit in the character thread while waiting for a possible Rah rules game. If anyone's interested in hashing in game situation out for a hopeful next week, see you there..

	21-02-2004 07:56									#291
	Got spare money?

if it means the difference between having this game continue or not i'll make peace.

	21-02-2004 07:58									#292
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Well I didn't want to just up and leave, I wanted to negotiate this peace treaty so things are smoothed over for my replacement. Plus if you guys really needed me to play tonight you should have said so, I assumed you found a sub or weren't playing or something. *shrug*

And Deity I casually left as I have been casually playing. My heart was never in this game and thats why I'm leaving now. Plus two games are just too much for me to handle.

	21-02-2004 08:03									#293
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Plus if you guys really needed me to play tonight you should have said so, I assumed you found a sub or weren't playing or something. *shrug*

Actually; you ignored my ICQs regarding that exact plea. "Or something"

So keep telling half lies and justifying this behavior by whatever means. At least you're sincerely convinced , while we're screwed over unattended indifference

Thanks.

	21-02-2004 08:57									#294
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I'm not even on ICQ. So I didn't get your messages.

	21-02-2004 15:08									#295
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diplos are hard to hold together , especially recently with so few of the people who used to play them around and avaialble t osub.

keep percervering guys it worth it in the end

	21-02-2004 22:29									#296
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You wanna be the Greeks Raz?

	21-02-2004 23:33									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Makeo I was looking forward to playing this week.

I bet you were.

Sorry folks, for not being a bit more definite. I had an emergency come up that kept me from leaving town, but also kept me from being in the same zip code as my computer. Count me in for next week.

	22-02-2004 12:37									#298
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP You wanna be the Greeks Raz?

I imagine finding a sub would go a lot better when working beyond brief and pathetic passes within this thread. In any case, please have one ready for us by Friday.

	22-02-2004 20:57									#299
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Makeo, Frank, and Cyron, please join the diplogroup.

http://apolyton.net/forums/memberli...s&civgroupid=52

	28-02-2004 05:48									#300
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hope you're all lookin forward to another!
So who's our sub, Oz?