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Zylka
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Hats off to Ljube, who left no stone unturned in getting us a working save. Makeo, a reboot might be necessary but it looks like we've got it. ARE YOU USING THE LATEST CITIES gif, though???
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Zylka
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awesome session
I'm going to get well ahead of priorities now, but I just want everyone to think of it. There are modern unit changes/rules posted in the beginning of this thread - which may need further consideration.
As well - I'd like to propose a rule against severe terraforming. For the most part, I think altering of mountains and/or hills to lesser physical forms is way too unrealistic an option. Something I always hated about civ2 and would like to see left out of this game
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Zylka
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Here's the modern combat list for our game
Armor 10/5 3 - moves
80 shields
Howitzer 12/2 2 - moves
3 HP 2FP
*Ignores city walls
70 shields
Modern infantry 6/6 - 1 move
3 HP 1 FP
*+50% against units with move factor of 2
60 shields
Mech infantry 7/7 - 3 moves
3 HP 1 FP
60 shields
I'm going to first ask everyone that Howitzer's have cost upped to 80 shields; minor adjustment although on realistic lines to keep armor somewhat valued. I'm also to change the graphic to a 155mm Paladin sort - to rid us memory of that awful and unrealistic shiny wheeled gun.
I am going to in following ask that paratroopers have defense realistically upped to a concrete 6 - rule confirmation below will reinforce reason for this
I would also ask that an MLRS 240 ground artillery unit be introduced (I can provide the graphic) - with following stats:
MLRS 12/2 1 move
2 HP 2FP
100 shields
Just as in real life - costlier to build and operate, slightly more destructive than conventional artillery with rockets/cluster charges (in this case evades infantry bonus), slightly weaker to counterattack, and less mobile in real combat due to vulnerable nature. The idea is simply that if you've put up effective area siege of a well defended area; ABSOLUTE stagnation doesn't result on either side. Mech infantry become more valued in "have in case" defense - as well.
I'm going to finally assert conclusive measure on the following rule "introductions"
-NO Diplo guiding
-NO Partisan guiding
-NO Paratrooper guiding
-NO bribing of Partisan units (realistic, and will further stem 1 turn sweeps)
We're going to have an absolutely top notch; MULTI FACETED and truly modern battle system which gives stern goodbye to the likes of HOTW4 tactic. I'm not willing to see Eurodip go down in a turn with the biggest civ unrealistically moving "howitzers" across several thousand miles/cities in a 4 hour turn. If you all agree - let's hear some conclusions on proposed changes, or further ideas.
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Zylka
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I half agree on paratroopers. I was going to first offer some sort of compromise regarding their cost (to an an unbelievable amount - basic guiding is incredibly powerful and past strategic realities of a single div in WW2)
but as stands; Paras have quite significant strategic value per cost with the new defense change - and on realistic basis. Yes - they still provide inherent role in guiding troops by loosely securing lands, tying off supply (reinforcement) routes to smaller opposition fronts via ZOC, diverting nearby enemy attention to regaining strategic/resource position(s), and securing basic transport lines from being purposely destroyed
As for howies.. check out the modern infantry unit and the (now) 155mm's slight cost upgrade. They will simply be a piece of the attack force - devastating when your enemy hasn't thought out defense and counter measure proportion properly.
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Zylka
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Oh, and more important to our upcoming sessions - we should all briefly consider recent developments in HOTW4 as non encouragement to player bias in future attack(s). With so much obvious 'feeling" developing over hotw's recent event - it would well maintain integrity of Ozzy's Euro to keep existing hostilites from out of game, out of game.
Of course this isn't concrete - nor a rule; you can eventually isolate or attack whoever the hell you want. I'm just asking that any such action or "policy" be realistically weighed with story and situational gain; if out game influenced intent is indeed significant factor.
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Makeo
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Reading, UK
Jan 1970
time: 22:32
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nevermind i read the thread
Last edited by Makeo on 17-02-2004 at 09:03
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Zylka
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That's your responsibility
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Zylka
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quote:
Originally posted by ljcvetko
I checked it out. Still no defence against howitzers unless all of my cities rest on mountains. |
They're now 75% a howitzer's cost. In short, best have a fewmodern Inf as fodder around at your exposable front(s) - plus artillery/armor/mrls of your own to counter. Howie's still need to have somewhat an effective place in modern warfare..
In any case - definitely willing to hear some new ideas regarding
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Zylka
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please save this into the game folder. some real diplomacy regarding the Gypo-Bab war in the story thread tommorrow
 Attachment: units.bmp
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:32
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I suggest seriously, to all players, to consider the nerfing of howitzers.
Most of us have experienced lots of warfare from other periods, since that is what is encountered most, and for the most part, the game is fairly balanced. Howitzers, even without the wall flag, is over twice as powerful as the last military unit armor and costs less to produce.
While modern infantry stand a chance against howies, they still require signifigant terrian bonuses to win.
So I'd like to deepen the discussion on how best the players feel howitzers should be limited in strength, since as they stand there is still no method of defense against them, and they stand out far in away from any other technlogical advancement advantage in the entire game.
I'd like to see howies reduced to 2HP...and keep their increased cost.
Last edited by Frank Johnson on 20-02-2004 at 03:46
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Zylka
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We've already slightly increased their cost, introduced a 75% cost modern infantry with defense beyond what's been seen before.. I personally think with hp mirroring the 3 of armor and mech inf it's realistic, and keeps the howie (barely) part of the game. What's been done so far seems a half way test - lowering hp would IMO disable worth of the unit entirely, and leave war a considerable nothing
But let's hear what everyone else thinks of Frank's proposal. I also have a modern unit list - any unit with changes has ** and comes with the the change bolded
*Armor*
10/5
3 HP 2FP (+)
3 moves
80 shields
*Mobile 155mm* (new Howitzer)
12/2
3 HP 2FP
2 moves
80 shields (+)
Ignores city walls
Modern infantry
6/6
3 HP 1 FP
1 move
60 shields
+50% against units with move factor of 2
*Mech infantry*
7/7 (++)
3 HP 1 FP
3 moves
60 shields
MLRS 12/2 (comes with Robotics, as well)
3 HP 2FP
1 move
120 shields
Ignores city walls
[...]
-NO Diplo guiding
-NO Partisan guiding
-NO Paratrooper guiding
-NO bribing of Partisan units (realistic, and will further stem 1 turn sweeps)
Last edited by Zylka on 20-02-2004 at 05:49
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Dylan Baker
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Washington, DC
Feb 2001
time: 05:32
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Guys, I am about 90% sure I will need a sub tomorrow night. If I can find somebody to cover my office on Saturday, then I am heading out of town.
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Zylka
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Ok Frank, I didn't think of the specific tech stages - just how unrealistically worthless armor are in the final. What's tech for modern inf, again? Tanks may indeed have to sit put
and Dylan.. it'd do us a world of good if you could arrrange a sub. maybe Jack can take the night off getting hammered at the pub and masturbating next to an empty pizza box?
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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:32
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Note that these units are already modified to be specially good against howies, it makes their total ownage more pathetic.
Here's a possible situation. Our brave defenders are fortified on open terrian, and with howies wall ignoring abilities, this is the typical defense setup for most civs.
All of our defenders have been destroyed. Most of the howies still have a move left and would be moving along to find more units to kill.
Luckily, your civ has alot of rivers. Or maybe you're the paranoid type and have modded all your city terrains to forests. Either way, these troopers have +50% more defense than the last set.
A better performance indeed, but alas, all the defenders were destroyed without taking a single howie with them, with a barracks town those howies will be back in action in 2 turns.
Now we've got them! Or do we? You've modded all your city terrains to hills with your engineers. Or, your troops are enjoying a fortress position. These troops have +100% defense.
Even with all of that, only a single defender got out alive, I mean if you call that alive.
This time, the troops were in the same spot, but with fortresses as well. This gave them +200% defense. They seemed to be even less lucky, note that this is an impossible city defense situation.
Ok, our boys have had it, and have built themselves some fortresses in the mountains. This gives them +300% defense. This ought to teach'em.
Wow, that was close. Too close if you ask me. This is the game's 2nd most powerful defensive position possilbe (the only other thing that can be done is to run a river over it too.) And these troops have been almost smashed. No civ can ever be fortified to this level either. The best a city can do is mod itself to hills and hope for the best......
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Zylka
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That's insane, even for cost ratio.. absolutely stunning
The pike flag is DEFINITELY active for the infantry?
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Zylka
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Alright, I'm convinced that can't be right - use fortifed modern inf on fortressed hill, for example
Modern Inf: 9 real defense vs Mobile 155's static 12 attack
%50 fortify bonus (by BASE defense of 6) is added = 9+3
%100 terrain bonus (by BASE defense of 6) is added = 12+6
%100 fortress bonus (") is added = 18+6
24 defense
Let me know what introduced variable might cancel out another; but this is with the benefit of the doubt regarding cumulative possibilities
So - with every defensive combat ON A FOTRESSED HILL: modern infantry should score 2:1 "hits" against howies. Yet the inf only deals 1hp damage in each hit, needing 3 hit wins per combat to kill the howitzer. The howitzer needs only 1.5 wins during like situation, yet in fresh to fresh unit example: a full 2 are needed.
Modern inf has %66 chance of each hit - 3 hits needed for kill
Mobile 155mm has %33 chance of each hit - 2 hits needed for kill
(I have no clue how exactly hp damages might be dealt divided on tenths since real calibrated HP for a 3 hp unit is 30, 2hp being 20, etc.)
So dismissing what might be the all telling yet unknown x10 calibration variable - your average instance of initiated combat between the two (under outlined circumstance) should be
1 - Modern inf scores first hit
2 - Modern inf scores second hit
2 - Howitzer scores third hit
3 - Modern inf scores fourth hit
4 - Howitzer destroyed; inf left with (=/-) 10/30 hp
*Over time - average leftover for modern inf should be 7/30hp
In such an average example - a total 35 hp should be left amongst 5 inf, for ALL howitzers being destroyed. This obviously fluctuates in leftover proportions
So.. what have I done wrong in calculation, or what's going on with the displayed tests? First - were they against the AI? What difficulting setting was it? Who attacked, the AI or you? Was there a suprise attack bonus for any of the first howitzer attacks - or was war already declared? Was the test done once in each instance, or repeated with average outcome "decided" in example? Is there a small yet notable attacker's hit bonus for every unit used - which I seem to "feel" in every game?
I think first off this should be retested with 2 players via mp
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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:32
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fortified Modern Infantry vs howie
12 def vs 12 att
(with pike flag bonus +3)
In this scenario, the howies lose only 7-8Hp and stay green.
forified modern infantry on river
15 vs 12....
5:4 ratio. Howies need 15 wins to kill, so they suffer 19dmg, so are always yellow or near red.
forified modern infantry on hill
18 vs 12
3:2 ratio. Howies need 15 wins to kill, so they suffer about 23 damage. These howies on average are in the red.
fortified modern infantry on hill fort
24 v 12
2:1 ratio. This is the first even battle. The odds should be exactly 50/50
fortified modern infantry on mountain fort
30 v 12
5:2 ratio. Howies need 15 hits to win, but suffer 38 before they do so. The infantry will still take serious damage.
They were done against the AI in an already declared war. I've done tests in the past that confirmed the flag worked, but it may have been luck since the tests were only done on a small scale of 10 units.
Last edited by Frank Johnson on 20-02-2004 at 13:42
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14-02-2004 08:37
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