27-12-2003 12:18									#61
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker You are just asking for the freedom to do it without any real worry for the consequences. No. It's your choice, yes, but you can't expect others to bear the burden of it.

no... I'm asking why you think you should arbitrarily deny someone medical care because of substance use that has no bearing on thousands of potential health care problems and costs...

i mean, if you just wanna be a selfish conservastive pudwhack... just say so... but if you have a legitimate point, make it...

	27-12-2003 12:21									#62
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*packs a cone*

it is fun.

	27-12-2003 12:36									#63
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quote: if you are saying people should no be covered by a national health plan because their detrimental behavior is costing YOU money... don't you think you should SHOW THAT IT IS COSTING YOU MONEY?! what about people who get hurt skateboarding or playing sports? that is an activity where injuries cost more money than marijuana usage?

We have a national health plan and I'm paying for the increasing incidence of schizophrenia in the population. Here's a link. I can't immediately remember the name of the bloke who's doing really good research on this stuff but I'll try to track him down. In summary:

quote: "The overall weight of evidence is that occasional use of cannabis has few harmful effects overall," Zammit's team writes. "Nevertheless, our results indicate a potentially serious risk to the mental health of people who use cannabis. Such risks need to be considered in the current move to liberalise and possibly legalise the use of cannabis in the UK and other countries."

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopi...hizophrenia.jsp

	27-12-2003 12:39									#64
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Yeah I've heard that it can cause alot of mental health problems. But again thats probably linked to the amount of usage.

	27-12-2003 12:39									#65
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Peter Triggs: and how much money, per person is this costing? exactly? 2 cents? or the UK equivalent of 2 American cents? seriously... you should prioritize... think about how much money bacon consumption is costing you in terms of health care costs... a LOT more than some pothead

	27-12-2003 12:43									#66
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Sava you really are a strong advocate for legalising dope aren'y you. Some bloody good arguments you are raising.

	27-12-2003 12:46									#67
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H Tuttle -

quote: Alright, maybe I'm just against it because of the drug culture. Damn hippies....

Then jail the hippies...

quote: Are all pot smokers like this? No.

Hmm...you consider punishing the innocent because of the "guilty" to be a moral position? Is this how you want to be treated? I mean, if you don't use pot should you be punished if someone else who doesn't use pot fails to live up to your standard?

	27-12-2003 12:54									#68
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Peter, if you have a problem with paying for other people's health care costs, complain to those forcing you to pay for other people's health care. If we followed your logic, the government would mandate every aspect of our lives since we may engage in activities that pose a burden to others under socialised medicine. You watch too much TV? Don't get enough sleep? Not enough exercise? Work too hard or too little? Too much ice cream? You get the point...your argument is hypocritical and a recipe for totalitarianism if taken to it's logical conclusion...

	27-12-2003 12:54									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker H Tuttle - Then jail the hippies...

If only...

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Hmm...you consider punishing the innocent because of the "guilty" to be a moral position? Is this how you want to be treated? I mean, if you don't use pot should you be punished if someone else who doesn't use pot fails to live up to your standard?

I don't get what your getting at. Could you rephrase? I think you're trying to make a flipside argument...? I'm not trying to punish anyone by outlawing pot. In fact, if its not any worse than cigarettes I'm for it being legalized. I'd just like some decent controls on it since it does screw up your perception of reality, as does alcohol.

I was just debating the improvement to society if it was legalized. From my limited experience I've seen a bunch of people get hooked on pot, then turn into bags of crap.

But my position wasn't from any moral aspect. More of a social benefit to socity standpoint. AKA: potheads do go to heaven and are not satan spawn.

	27-12-2003 12:57									#70
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Also looking on the voting results. The vast majority of people that are against legalising it are people who have not had dope before. Interesting, I must say. Makes you wonder what they are basing their opinions on if they have never tried it.

	27-12-2003 13:00									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Also looking on the voting results. The vast majority of people that are against legalising it are people who have not had dope before. Interesting, I must say. Makes you wonder what they are basing their opinions on if they have never tried it.

Not necessarily. The poll answers do not state whether someone has tried it before.

	27-12-2003 13:03									#72
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What about the pothead? There are people who totally f__k up their lives from smoking pot. I know some. There is a relativelely small minority of people who are genetically disposed toward schizophenia but who will be triggered towards this illness by pot. I know that for most people that smoking dope is less damaging than drinking or smoking tobacco.

But there is this minority who get totally screwed from smoking dope. What do we do about this? Personally, I'm in favour of minimal government but I know people who have really screwed themselve. I really don't know an answer to this question.

	27-12-2003 13:04									#73
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True that, true that. Hmmm still I know some people that are totally against it and have never touched the stuff before, yet they think that alcohol and ciggies are so much more better than dope. Makes you wonder bout their reasoning (or lackthereof).

	27-12-2003 13:05									#74
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Eh, it's the same as with the people who totally screw themselves up with the likes of alcohol. How do they deal with this btw, can't for the life of me remember.

Maybe we should just shoot them. (jokes)

	27-12-2003 13:06									#75
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H Tuttle -

quote: I don't get what your getting at. Could you rephrase? I think you're trying to make a flipside argument...? I'm not trying to punish anyone by outlawing pot. In fact, if its not any worse than cigarettes I'm for it being legalized. I'd just like some decent controls on it since it does screw up your perception of reality, as does alcohol.

Did you not say it should be illegal? That's called punishing people... And your rationale, some of the people you know were lazy, etc., means you advocate punishing millions of people based on what these few people you know have done.

quote: I was just debating the improvement to society if it was legalized. From my limited experience I've seen a bunch of people get hooked on pot, then turn into bags of crap.

Has pot disappeared under prohibition? Your argument's only potential viability (if we ignore morality) depends on the proposition that pot use is not only lower under prohibition, but so much lower as to outweigh all the negative consequences of prohibition...

quote: But my position wasn't from any moral aspect.

I know.

quote: More of a social benefit to socity standpoint. AKA: potheads do go to heaven and are not satan spawn.

Freedom is not a social benefit, but a nanny state that rules over us is a social benefit? The Nazis murdered millions based on what they decided was good for society...you know, ridding society of "undesirables" to enhance the German "race" starting with the mentally handicapped...

I suggest you find a different ideological principle...

	27-12-2003 13:09									#76
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Why legalize pot? Well, let's go over the reasons:

1. It's my body and I'm not harming a single person, so how is it the state's purview to decide whether or not I can smoke weed?
2. Locking a person up in a US prison will do far more damage to him than some weed ever would.
3. Prohibition is totally ineffective in stopping drug use.
4. Prohibition creates huge black markets in which labor rights, consumer protections, and competition are totally undermined, being replaced by wanton violence.
5. Weed is simply not a very dangerous drug. Since it isn't addictive, as opposed to say nicotine, it tends not to be smoked in a great enough frequency to cause nasty things like lung cancer. Frankly, I think my use of caffiene is far more harmful to my health than my use of weed.

And while we're at it, let's legalize the rest of the drugs.

	27-12-2003 13:14									#77
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1. True
2. Probably true
3. Not totally ineffective but pretty much.
4. Eh thats the workers fault for being in that black industry. Get a legal job.
5. Its about as dangerous as alcohol and ciggies.

	27-12-2003 13:15									#78
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didn't you see those new commercials? YOU'LL FORGET TO PICK UP YOUR LITTLE BLACK BROTHER!

	27-12-2003 13:16									#79
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hahahahahahahahahahahaha

	27-12-2003 13:16									#80
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Peter -

quote: But there is this minority who get totally screwed from smoking dope. What do we do about this?

"We"? Government does not exist to prevent you from "screwing up", it exists to secure your freedom from those who would take it. So advocating "we" take your freedom before you screw up defeats the purpose of government... If my friend or family member had a problem with pot, alcohol, tobacco, gambling, or any other thing, I'd offer counsel but the choice still rests with them. Btw, putting millions of people in cages with real criminals for their own good is a perversion of logic...

quote: Personally, I'm in favour of minimal government but I know people who have really screwed themselve. I really don't know an answer to this question.

You can't be for "minimal" government and take the position that government should decide what we all can or cannot ingest, the two are simply incompatable...

	27-12-2003 13:18									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker H Tuttle - Did you not say it should be illegal? That's called punishing people... And your rationale, some of the people you know were lazy, etc., means you advocate punishing millions of people based on what these few people you know have done.

I don't know if I can agree with your rational about illegal = punishment. I mean it could only be punishment if we were trying to make someone atone for what they did wrong. The only punishment with it being illegal is the kind given out when caught. By your definition I would say that we are punishing everyone by not allowing them the opportunity to smoke pot legally.

QUOTE] Originally posted by Berzerker

Has pot disappeared under prohibition? Your argument's only potential viability (if we ignore morality) depends on the proposition that pot use is not only lower under prohibition, but so much lower as to outweigh all the negative consequences of prohibition...[/QUOTE]

I don't understand what you mean. I was referring to the benefit and problems that are inherent with legalizing drug use such as pot. ie. no black market, possible addiction problems, etc...

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Freedom is not a social benefit, but a nanny state that rules over us is a social benefit? The Nazis murdered millions based on what they decided was good for society...you know, ridding society of "undesirables" to enhance the German "race" starting with the mentally handicapped... I suggest you find a different ideological principle...

Woah! That is a big step don't you think? The Nazis killed based on race. I was debating whether it's a good idea to legalize pot. My position now, after debating the issue, is that if it is no more harmful then the things we already have then legalize it.

And I'm a Republican/Conservative type. Nanny states don't sit well with me. I just want government to intervene on things that might be actually harmful to us because we have a hard problem saying no to them. If addiciton with pot is to much of a con for legalizing it then I say no.

	27-12-2003 13:20									#82
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quote: 5. Weed is simply not a very dangerous drug. Since it isn't addictive, as opposed to say nicotine, it tends not to be smoked in a great enough frequency to cause nasty things like lung cancer. Frankly, I think my use of caffiene is far more harmful to my health than my use of weed.

Weed is addictive. You weren't there in the other thread a while ago, but this came up there too. ANY PSYCHOACTIVE DRUG IS CHEMICALLY ADDICTIVE. (psycoactive meaning that it induces or suppresses neurotransmitters) It is an inherent property of their modus operandi - over time the mind "recalibrates" unnatural levels of neurotransmitters to "natural", requiring greater amounts of a drug to achieve a high and requiring small or moderate amounts of a drug to feel normal.

(However, this dependency does fade over time.)

	27-12-2003 13:25									#83
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Flip -

quote: 4. Eh thats the workers fault for being in that black industry. Get a legal job.

Do you know why juvenile crime began skyrocketing in the mid 1980's here in the US? Because Reagan and Congress decided to crack down on adults in the drug business so many adults in that business began recruiting minors to avoid the harsher penalties. Those crime rates have been rising virtually every year since. Sure, you can tell a poor kid to work at McDonalds instead of being a lookout for drug dealers, but don't be surprised when the money to made in the drug market lures them away from "legal" jobs. Thanks to the drug war we saw some kids making more than their parents...

quote: 5. Its about as dangerous as alcohol and ciggies.

Roughly 75,000 die each year from alcohol and ~400,000 die from tobacco. Are you sure you want to make that argument?

	27-12-2003 13:27									#84
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Berzerker -

Na didn't know the first bit. Interesting bit of news.

Ummmm how many people die from dope use a year?

	27-12-2003 13:29									#85
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quote: Eh thats the workers fault for being in that black industry. Get a legal job.

Good to see the sympathy of the prohibitionist is in the right place. I guess the same goes for drug buyers?

What about "innocent" (which I guess excludes workers and consumers) people get get caught in between gang violence?

quote: Its about as dangerous as alcohol and ciggies.

The number of Americans who died from tobacco use in past year is about 400,000; the number who died from alcohol use is about 100,000; the number who died from pot use is insignificant.

quote: ANY PSYCHOACTIVE (induces or suppresses neurotransmitters) DRUG IS CHEMICALLY ADDICTIVE.

That's right, I was meaning physical addiction. Which is generally far, far more serious a problem than chemical addiction. While chemical addiction isn't something to be dismissed out of hand, it isn't the sort of thing that will get one to smoke 15 joints a day.

	27-12-2003 13:35									#86
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Ummm i ain't a prohibitionist, I'm for legalising it. The innocent ones I do feel sorry for. The drug buyers should be aware of the dangers and its their own choice to go over the law to get it.

So the numbers being insignificant, then that argument is safe to run with for someone wanting to legalise it.

	27-12-2003 13:38									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Sava you really are a strong advocate for legalising dope aren'y you. Some bloody good arguments you are raising.

well thank you

it's not that hard... the issue of pot isn't that difficult. There are better arguments against stuff like crack and cocaine (in terms of health and addiction)... but pot is a no-brainer (no pun intended). Especially when alcohol and cigarettes are legal... and no, I'm not saying they should be outlawed just so the drug warriors can be consistent and non-hypocritical.

	27-12-2003 13:43									#88
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No problem.

I've been having some debates with people over the issue of dope legalisation. I keep getting mental blocks with ideas of why. Like I can think of them but can't quite put them into words so this is helping.

	27-12-2003 13:48									#89
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quote: The drug buyers should be aware of the dangers and its their own choice to go over the law to get it.

Are you saying that the welfare of workers, consumers, and competing businesses is irrelevant simply because they are involved in black markets? Even Ashcroft wouldn't make so callous a claim.

	27-12-2003 13:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs What about the pothead? There are people who totally f__k up their lives from smoking pot. I know some. There is a relativelely small minority of people who are genetically disposed toward schizophenia but who will be triggered towards this illness by pot. I know that for most people that smoking dope is less damaging than drinking or smoking tobacco. But there is this minority who get totally screwed from smoking dope. What do we do about this? Personally, I'm in favour of minimal government but I know people who have really screwed themselve. I really don't know an answer to this question.

so how is locking them up in jail a solution? just curious... wouldn't it be better for the stuff to be legal and for the tax money generated from the sale of marijuana going to fund rehab and addiction counseling programs? Despite the fact that these programs WORK and that prison makes things worse... rehab programs and addiction counseling COSTS LESS THAN PRISON!!

Not only do we save money by not locking these non-violent offenders up, but we GENERATE money in order to pay for these things. That means skywalker's selfish ass won't have to pay for some pothead's medical bills, too!

quote: Weed is addictive. You weren't there in the other thread a while ago, but this came up there too. ANY PSYCHOACTIVE DRUG IS CHEMICALLY ADDICTIVE. (psycoactive meaning that it induces or suppresses neurotransmitters) It is an inherent property of their modus operandi - over time the mind "recalibrates" unnatural levels of neurotransmitters to "natural", requiring greater amounts of a drug to achieve a high and requiring small or moderate amounts of a drug to feel normal.

marijuana is NOT CHEMICALLY ADDICTIVE!!! you are reaching Fez levels here skywalker

The American Medical Association opposed the banning of marijuana http://www.pdxnorml.org/AMA_opposes_1937.html

Marijuana is only addictive in the sense that really pleasant things in life are worth repeating.

Even though Marijuana is not chemically addictive, the following substances are: caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, chocolate, prescription drugs...

If you are going to argue the "pot is bad for you" argument, skywalker, don't you think you should find out what the medical community thinks? You know... doctors who know what's bad for you and stuff? They think marijuana is fine (in moderation) and that it has enormous potential in medical use, not just a few diseases here and there.