28-12-2003 00:00									#121
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quote: Originally posted by oedo so you´re a vegetarian, live in a shabby, unheated flat and your clothes were knited by your grandma? (I assume you´re too young to drive a car, yet but you don´t plan to have one sometime anyway). impressive.

No, I meant that I'm not the one who cuts down the rain forest or pays workers poor wages (how bad globalization is is another argument anyways).

By the way, McDonald's doesn't buy meat raised on farms built where there used to be rainforest

	28-12-2003 00:03									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho 1. True 2. Probably true 3. Not totally ineffective but pretty much. 4. Eh thats the workers fault for being in that black industry. Get a legal job. 5. Its about as dangerous as alcohol and ciggies.

Flip, didn't you read my post? Many studies have unveiled that legislation does not convince anyone not to do drugs. It is one of the least important reason.

In fact, pot use in the Netherlands has diminished since the legalization. QED, anyone?

	28-12-2003 00:06									#123
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quote: be consoled, skywalker... the drug legalization camp is made up entirely of upper middle class white college students. they are crazy anyway and I'm sure will grow out of their ignorance. they also lack the numbers to change anything.

Lower middle class philosophy, sociology, psychology and politics (pt) student. White. Nonetheless, if the best you can do is ad hominem, I suggest you stop. I can say stuff about the origin of anti-cannabis people, but I don't because I stick to attacking arguments, because it is the critical proposition of my view and refutation of my opponents that is my strength, due to the strength of the argument for legalisation. Nonetheless, in the UK, a politically significant number of people want to see it legalised. Can't remember exact figures, though I know its more than the anti-war people in UK.

quote: The medical benefits don't require that it be legalized for general usage, just prescription usage. And in that case, I would hope heavy controls would be put on how it's prescribed. To my knowledge, it is only useful to ease the pain of a few arthritics.

MS as well IIRC. The medical benefits alone do not, but they demonstrate that it is not an entirely negative substance, "evil green", and has benefits. Consider that mankind has been using hemp and opium derivatives for millenia, though of course the latter is more problematic.

You fail to refute the libertarian argument (self explanatory), the taxation argument (self explanatory), the economic argument (popular stuff to sell), the sociological/crime argument (removes link to harder drugs, far cheaper and safer competition to dealers), the artistic benefits (tends to make people more expressive, many great artists were under the influence of marijuana, and many aspiring artists and writers too).

Also consider that since its so popular already, keeping it illegal is no longer practical, as is prosecuting the law. Indeed, you are criminalising one in seven of UK adults by keeping it illegal. Its hurting no-one but the user (and passive smokers but that can be dealt with by the tobacco argument), which is the individuals perogative. Are we going to ban all unhealthy substances? Tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, oxygen?

	28-12-2003 00:09									#124
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Hey, interesting side note:

Did you know that western society is the only society to use mind altering drugs (I consider alcohol a drug too) recreationally? Its true, all other cultures (until we corrupted them) used mind altering substances for ritual and religious reasons only. What bastards we are.

Thank god for the west.

Carry on...

	28-12-2003 00:17									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer be consoled, skywalker... the drug legalization camp is made up entirely of upper middle class white college students. they are crazy anyway and I'm sure will grow out of their ignorance. they also lack the numbers to change anything.

YEAH SURE.

Those Latinos and Blacks from the ghettos who are spending half their life in jail CERTAINLY agree with the drug ban, eh?

	28-12-2003 00:22									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy quote: be consoled, skywalker... the drug legalization camp is made up entirely of upper middle class white college students. they are crazy anyway and I'm sure will grow out of their ignorance. they also lack the numbers to change anything. Lower middle class philosophy, sociology, psychology and politics (pt) student. White. Nonetheless, if the best you can do is ad hominem, I suggest you stop. I can say stuff about the origin of anti-cannabis people, but I don't because I stick to attacking arguments, because it is the critical proposition of my view and refutation of my opponents that is my strength, due to the strength of the argument for legalisation. Nonetheless, in the UK, a politically significant number of people want to see it legalised. Can't remember exact figures, though I know its more than the anti-war people in UK.

The funny thing is that I pretty much fit into that category too

	28-12-2003 00:30									#127
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Whaleboy, it is false to presume marijuana leads to other drugs anyway.

Following your reasoning, if marijuana disappeared, then there would be no more new drug adepts.

Following your reasoning, we should forbid a speed of 60 mph on the highways because it leads to 80 mph.

What you need to understand is that each drug has a social value. Marijuana fits the bill of the mainstream, widely accepted, cheap and pleasant drug; while any other drug could have this role.
In fact, studies show that even cocaine and heroine are not much more dangerous. There is no such things as hard or soft drugs. This is pure propaganda BS.

	28-12-2003 00:40									#128
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Hey, interesting side note: Did you know that western society is the only society to use mind altering drugs (I consider alcohol a drug too) recreationally? Its true, all other cultures (until we corrupted them) used mind altering substances for ritual and religious reasons only. What bastards we are.

Yeah, right...what have you been smoking.

Used to smoke, not any more. Should be legal, b/c it won't increase availability, can be taxed (btw, part of the tax can be used to pay for treatment, so if you don't buy it, you don't have to pay for their recovery), will reduce criminal profits, and allow people to know what's in their drugs (FDA regulated).

	28-12-2003 00:43									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I dont get this... Sava says weed is not chemically addictive based on a 1937 AMA report... a 66 year old report... sava, go back a few more years and you'll expose the truth that the negro has a small brain which is why he is less intelligent than whites.

wrongo... that report had nothing to do with addiction... you should learn to read speery pie

Skywalker... do you know what a chemical addiction is? Because judging by your posts, you do not. A "chemical addiction" is when your body becomes physically dependent on a substance (i.e. withdrawl when you don't get it). Withdrawl has very specific and pronounced symptons. I know because I've been on medications before that ARE chemically dependent. Marijuana is not chemically dependent. The medical community doesn't think so, no scientist thinks so... only drug warriors who are uninformed think so. As a user of marijuana I can testify to the FACT that marijuana is NOT CHEMICALLY ADDICTIVE. I've smoked marijuana daily for a month, then stopped cold turkey... and NOTHING.

In fact, marijuana is described as "anti-addictive" meaning... IT HELPS PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM WITHDRAWL FROM OTHER SUBSTANCES.

So far skywalker, you have been wrong on every point.

quote: be consoled, skywalker... the drug legalization camp is made up entirely of upper middle class white college students. they are crazy anyway and I'm sure will grow out of their ignorance. they also lack the numbers to change anything.

wrong speer... the medical community doesn't agree with the prohibition... the vast majority of law enforcement doesn't agree with prohibition... judges don't agree with prohibition... and I suspect the vast majority of politicians don't agree with prohibition. That's why I can't understand why this lobby of drug warriors is so powerful in Washington.

quote: To my knowledge, it is only useful to ease the pain of a few arthritics.

then your knowledge isn't that extensive

here's a short synopses from the NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH
http://www.nih.gov/news/medmarijuan...alMarijuana.htm
notice the .GOV

--Marijuana has analgesiac properties... relieving minor body pain, and relieving pain associated with cancer and chemotherapy treatments
--Neurological and movement disorders (multiple sclerosis, partial spinal cord injury, epilepsies, dystonic states,

quote: Cannabinoids have shown efficacy as immune modulators in animal models of neurological conditions such as experimental allergic encephalomyelitis (EAE) and neuritis

-- Glaucoma
-- Appetite Stimulation/Cachexia

the list just goes on and on... but we really don't know for sure what medical marijuana could do BECAUSE THE DRUG WARRIORS WON'T ALLOW THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY IN AMERICA TO DO REAL SCIENTIFIC TESTS ON THE SCALES NECESSARY TO EVALUATE THE SUBSTANCE'S POSSIBLE USAGES.

So please Speery, skywalker... whoever... bring me your uninformed OPINIONS about marijuana. I'll lay down fact upon fact supported by mainstream medical sources. I'll BLOW YOU DRUG WARRIORS OUT OF THE WATER!

	28-12-2003 00:44									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Also looking on the voting results. The vast majority of people that are against legalising it are people who have not had dope before. Interesting, I must say. Makes you wonder what they are basing their opinions on if they have never tried it.

Flip, whats the bud like in NZ?

Hey everyone, lets start a sub conversation.

What is the quality of weed like in your country/area and what is average price of a gram, half quarter, quarter, ounce, whatever? Also, how easy is it to get, ie do you have to go into the projects to get it, or does your neighbor deal? Lets try to determine which place has the best bang for your buck, then we can all meet up in said country and get blazed.

In Ottawa, its C$10 per G, $30 for a 1/2Q, $60 for a Q, although sometimes 55 or even 50. The quality is good, people say its not as good as BC bud, but on the few occasions I've tried some stuff from BC (British Columbia) I didn't notice much of a difference, it was just a bit smoother.

	28-12-2003 00:44									#131
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Hey, interesting side note: Did you know that western society is the only society to use mind altering drugs (I consider alcohol a drug too) recreationally? Its true, all other cultures (until we corrupted them) used mind altering substances for ritual and religious reasons only. What bastards we are. Thank god for the west. Carry on...

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Doesn't even desserve counter-arguments.

	28-12-2003 00:46									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Yeah, right...what have you been smoking. Used to smoke, not any more. Should be legal, b/c it won't increase availability, can be taxed (btw, part of the tax can be used to pay for treatment, so if you don't buy it, you don't have to pay for their recovery), will reduce criminal profits, and allow people to know what's in their drugs (FDA regulated).

No, its true... I've heard this from multiple sources in multiple University classes. We're the only society to treat drugs in this way, historically I mean. Of course other parts of the world do now, but they never did before we came along.

Yeah, I never meant they don't do it now.

	28-12-2003 00:46									#133
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JimmyCracksCorn: In the Chicago area, good bud (dank) is between $30 to $60 for an eighth of a pound.

	28-12-2003 00:48									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Sava JimmyCracksCorn: In the Chicago area, good bud (dank) is between $30 to $60 for an eighth of a pound.

An eighth of a pound?



Like how many grams is that....

	28-12-2003 00:52									#135
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Jimmy: between 2.5 and 3.5 I think... damn metric system

	28-12-2003 00:52									#136
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Sava, I doubt what you say about law enforcement officers. Most of them are strongly pro-prohibition. It's their bread and butter and plus, they've been brainwashed by years of service.

Judges? I'd say not the Catholic/conservative ones. There are many of them.

I know it sounds disgusting, but I think the real reason might be social purification. Send the poor to jail. Blame drugs instead of wealth inequalities.

And there is also the problem that legalization will kill the black market. The CIA just needs it to enforce America's foreign policy, as to allow trade to those they support, prevent it to those they don't, and then justify intervention with the argument: they are cocaine cultivators!

	28-12-2003 00:52									#137
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn No, its true... I've heard this from multiple sources in multiple University classes. We're the only society to treat drugs in this way, historically I mean. Of course other parts of the world do now, but they never did before we came along. Yeah, I never meant they don't do it now.

Then your university sucks. Ancient Egyptians, for one, liked to get high (I forget the substance) and drink. Yes it was used in religious ceremonies but also used recreationally. Chinese also. I'm sure if I delved deeper I could find some more info.

I'd ask to get a refund on my tuition if I were you.

	28-12-2003 00:54									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Sava JimmyCracksCorn: In the Chicago area, good bud (dank) is between $30 to $60 for an eighth of a pound.

Losers. I could get it for $10 a quarter bag.

	28-12-2003 00:55									#139
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn No, its true... I've heard this from multiple sources in multiple University classes. We're the only society to treat drugs in this way, historically I mean. Of course other parts of the world do now, but they never did before we came along. Yeah, I never meant they don't do it now.

what about alcohol? it IS a drug, and it has existed for millenias. And what about opium, in China? It was used with an entertainment purpose.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think marijuana has any strong religious tie in the Muslim world.

	28-12-2003 00:56									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Then your university sucks. Ancient Egyptians, for one, liked to get high (I forget the substance) and drink. Yes it was used in religious ceremonies but also used recreationally. Chinese also. I'm sure if I delved deeper I could find some more info. I'd ask to get a refund on my tuition if I were you.

That is true, but I think they were talking more about substantially different societies, because you could argue that the Egyptians contributed alot to ours as they undoubtedly contributed to greco roman culture which is precedent of ours.

Ok, all was too broad, MOST societies don't use drugs recreationally historically.

	28-12-2003 00:57									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Jimmy: between 2.5 and 3.5 I think... damn metric system

Wow, man, you're getting ripped.

$50 Canadian will get you 7.5 grams here, although maybe the quality of yours is alot better...

	28-12-2003 01:02									#142
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Ok, all was too broad, MOST societies don't use drugs recreationally historically.

Damn double adverbs. "don't use recreational drugs historically." An F for you!!

Anyway, MOST societies, historically, didn't have a lot of leisure time. Survival mode tends to discourage recreational drug use.

As for "substantially different societies" the Incans used to chew on Coca leaves to get a buzz, as well as an energy boost. The South American locals still do (when they can).

	28-12-2003 01:02									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris what about alcohol? it IS a drug, and it has existed for millenias. And what about opium, in China? It was used with an entertainment purpose. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think marijuana has any strong religious tie in the Muslim world.

Well, I think the Chinese used opium for medicinal purposes, and that the muslim world used hemp in the same way... although I'm not sure.

And alcholo is a drug, but I think its limited to this part of the world (Europe, North Africa), or I mean it used to be until we started exporting it.

But I'm not sure, I was never saying it was absolute fact, I was just remembering something I heard a couple years ago although I don't remember it all. But I'm pretty sure at least that the way we use mind altering substances is historically very different than other parts...

worth looking into...

	28-12-2003 01:03									#144
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2 oz.=5.6 grams

	28-12-2003 01:08									#145
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Speer and skywalker: BTW, the right wing CATO INSTITUTE think tank doesn't agree with the drug war either.

http://www.cato.org/current/drug-war/

Here are some more links if you feel like reading INFORMED opinions and facts.

Brookings Institution: http://www.brook.edu/press/review/spring96/stares.htm
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition: http://leap.cc/

Even a surgeon general of the US suggested legalization was the right thing to do in 1993.

Here's a good site: http://www.drugpolicy.org/homepage.cfm

also, how come people like Governor Jeb Bush and Rush Limbaugh have said their respective drug problems (in Jeb's case, his daughter) are private matters that don't concern law enforcement?

How about the WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION? What do they think?
http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/docs/cannabis.pdf

The publication "New Scientist" even discoverd a WHO study that concluded long term marijuana usage is LESS HARMFUL than tobacco and alcohol.
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopi...ijuana/news.jsp

And Speer, since you claim to be on the side of minorities, you should know that drug laws in the US are applied unfairly towards minorities.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/f...eller_fact2.cfm
http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/f...thedr/index.cfm
http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/f...ack_cocaine.cfm

so please... I have an army of knowledge with which to BURY YOU with.

BRING IT ON

	28-12-2003 01:09									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Damn double adverbs. "don't use recreational drugs historically." An F for you!!

Yeah, yeah...

quote: Anyway, MOST societies, historically, didn't have a lot of leisure time. Survival mode tends to discourage recreational drug use.

Not true, our society has some of the lowest levels of leisure time. But if you're talking historically, foraging societies typically only had to spend a few hours each day gathering food. Its a well known fact that hunting and gathering requires the least amount of time and effort to meet your daily needs.[/quote]

quote: As for "substantially different societies" the Incans used to chew on Coca leaves to get a buzz, as well as an energy boost. The South American locals still do (when they can).

Very true, but I would say that getting a buzz to help you get through the day in the field is different than getting shitfaced everynight. This is the point I'm getting at - It was our society that pretty much invented getting arsefaced for no reason other than to get arsefaced.

	28-12-2003 01:10									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Theben 2 oz.=5.6 grams

I don't think so, a quarter is a quarter of an ounce, and thats 7.5 grams.

Trust me, I've bought many...

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean...

	28-12-2003 01:10									#148
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quote: Wow, man, you're getting ripped. $50 Canadian will get you 7.5 grams here, although maybe the quality of yours is alot better...

because of prohibition, drug prices are higher, and organized crime can make more money off of it...

but those prices I quoted are for TOP OF THE LINE buds... I only smoke really good ****.

	28-12-2003 01:17									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Sava because of prohibition, drug prices are higher, and organized crime can make more money off of it... but those prices I quoted are for TOP OF THE LINE buds... I only smoke really good ****.

Really? Its not like weed is exactly legal here either, just the penalties aren't quite as severe.

But its cool though that you actually pay more for better stuff, implying that you pay less for shitty stuff. Here it might be cheap, but you'll pay the same price whether its the best stuff in the world or garbage, so you have to be careful.

But man, you're not to far from the border, you should come to Ontario with your USDs and you could get hiiiiiiiiiiigh for months....

	28-12-2003 01:20									#150
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quote: Really? Its not like weed is exactly legal here either, just the penalties aren't quite as severe.

Canada is much more lax about enforcement though...

quote: But its cool though that you actually pay more for better stuff, implying that you pay less for shitty stuff. Here it might be cheap, but you'll pay the same price whether its the best stuff in the world or garbage, so you have to be careful.

that's strange...

quote: But man, you're not to far from the border, you should come to Ontario with your USDs and you could get hiiiiiiiiiiigh for months....

perhaps I shall... Canada is looking more and more like the greener grass (no pun intended).