10-01-2004 06:29									#421
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Why should I believe the History Channel? The History Channel just stupidly repeats the numbers that are considered common knowledge in the West. These numbers were first mentioned in the 1950s, and it was not a result of a serious study, but rather of a wild and irresponsible guess. And this has been repeated over and over since then. Apparently the West was happy to cling to it, as it was a good propagandistic tool during the Cold War.

I think I found part of your problem with the numbers. You are thinking short term as in WWII. Stalin took power in 1929 and remain in power until his dead in 1953. Over a period of 24 year he kill some 30 million or so people. These people were his own Soviet people, not outsider. Hitler killed 14 or so million that were not German. I'm not counting the war dead.
Did you know that he hated the Russian people. Remember Stalin is Georgian, and maybe he had a thing against Russian.

	10-01-2004 07:11									#422
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Vagabond, did you just say earlier that you could have demanded big bucks from the baltic countries? Are you serious? You were occupying them for decades! They should have got reparations from you! Just how bully can russians be?

I meant to demand big bucks from the West for our strategic withdrawl. And they would have paid. Nevertheless, we withdrew as an act of good will. This was partly due to the feeling of guilt which sprung as we were discovering a larger picture of what was going on in the world, and partly due to the innate altruism of the Russian soul.

	10-01-2004 07:18									#423
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph I think I found part of your problem with the numbers. You are thinking short term as in WWII. Stalin took power in 1929 and remain in power until his dead in 1953. Over a period of 24 year he kill some 30 million or so people.

OK, let's see. 30 million killed by Stalin, about 30 million killed in WWII, about 7 million during the Russian civil war (1918-1921). Does this mean that about a half of the population of the Russian Empire/Soviet Union were killed?? This is nonsense.

quote: Did you know that he hated the Russian people. Remember Stalin is Georgian, and maybe he had a thing against Russian.

I don't believe he hated the Russian people. He was not a nationalist or xenophobe. He was simply a paranoid maniac.

	10-01-2004 07:39									#424
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond OK, let's see. 30 million killed by Stalin, about 30 million killed in WWII, about 7 million during the Russian civil war (1918-1921). Does this mean that about a half of the population of the Russian Empire/Soviet Union were killed?? This is nonsense. I don't believe he hated the Russian people. He was not a nationalist or xenophobe. He was simply a paranoid maniac.

The history channel report said otherwise. On the report they talk to a fromer KGB person that served under Stalin. His section was one of the section that had to come up with list of peope to kill. He told the reporter that one time they turn in a list of a few hundred people to be killed and Stalin told him to add more name. He then said we went back to our office and just started to go through name of people and add them. If we did not Stalin would have kill me and my staff, so we did it. Most of the people on this list was guilty of living and nothing more and they had not commited any crimes against the Soviet Government or other people.
Being proud of ones country is not bad, but denial of what it's Government can or would do, or what a dictator or leader would do if they had the change is wrong.
I worked for the US Government for 33 years. I do not trust the US Government or any of my elected official.
I saw a lot while I worked for them, and I know what they will do if they have to, to cover up for someone or something. They will turn on you in an instant and make you look like an a$$ hole even though you did nothing wrong.

	10-01-2004 08:05									#425
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Being proud of ones country is not bad, but denial of what it's Government can or would do, or what a dictator or leader would do if they had the change is wrong.

What denial are you talking about? I don't deny anything. I just don't believe/trust the crazy numbers you are citing.

quote: I worked for the US Government for 33 years. I do not trust the US Government or any of my elected official.

What the hell does this all have to do with trusting the goverment?? I don't trust any government in particular, and not the Russian one. Furthermore, the Russian Government didn't come up with any "official" number for that. The official number of the Soviet citizens killed during WWII is 27 million. However, no such number was officially named for repression victims.

	10-01-2004 08:31									#426
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond What denial are you talking about? I don't deny anything. I just don't believe/trust the crazy numbers you are citing. What the hell does this all have to do with trusting the goverment?? I don't trust any government in particular, and not the Russian one. Furthermore, the Russian Government didn't come up with any "official" number for that. The official number of the Soviet citizens killed during WWII is 27 million. However, no such number was officially named for repression victims.

The 30 million were before and after the war. Well maybe some during the war.

	10-01-2004 08:41									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Tingkai, nobody here has painted the Nazi's as anything but despicable, we are just stating the fact that the Soviets are worse.

Did the Soviets start WWII? No.

Who is responsible for the 40 million people killed in Europe during WWII? The Germans/Nazis.

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos And although we can't fathom why someone would believe in Nazism, if they did in fact believe truly then they can fight for it with distinction, bravery and heroism like any other cause.

So you think the Gestapo were brave? Do you think the ordinary German soldiers who murdered their way across Europe were brave?

Where is the bravery in killing unarmed civillians? Where is the bravery in walking up to someone and shooting them dead?

German soldiers, both Army and SS, routinely murdered people for sport. They killed babies, they killed the elderley, they killed young and old. They raped women. They enslaved others. They tortured people just for the hell of it. And then there were the concentration camps. Millions murdered.

There was nothing brave in what the Nazis did and anyone who thinks they were brave needs to read about the history of WWII.

	10-01-2004 09:10									#428
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:threadjack:

	10-01-2004 14:12									#429
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Did the Soviets start WWII? No.

Well..... The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact of 1939 gave Germany the green light to invade Poland just before the war started and allowed for its partition.

	10-01-2004 17:54									#430
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai German soldiers, both Army and SS, routinely murdered people for sport. They killed babies, they killed the elderley, they killed young and old. They raped women. They enslaved others. They tortured people just for the hell of it. And then there were the concentration camps. Millions murdered. There was nothing brave in what the Nazis did and anyone who thinks they were brave needs to read about the history of WWII.

Give me a good source, professor.

	10-01-2004 18:11									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Did the Soviets start WWII? No. Who is responsible for the 40 million people killed in Europe during WWII? The Germans/Nazis. So you think the Gestapo were brave? Do you think the ordinary German soldiers who murdered their way across Europe were brave? Where is the bravery in killing unarmed civillians? Where is the bravery in walking up to someone and shooting them dead? German soldiers, both Army and SS, routinely murdered people for sport. They killed babies, they killed the elderley, they killed young and old. They raped women. They enslaved others. They tortured people just for the hell of it. And then there were the concentration camps. Millions murdered. There was nothing brave in what the Nazis did and anyone who thinks they were brave needs to read about the history of WWII.

The Soviets participated in carving up Poland. wAsn't that the start of the war?

	10-01-2004 18:40									#432
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Soviets attacked Finland 1939. And lost

	10-01-2004 19:07									#433
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We won actually.

	10-01-2004 19:41									#434
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quote: Originally posted by TCO The Soviets participated in carving up Poland. wAsn't that the start of the war?

No. Please remind me when GB and France declared war on USSR for that?
Brits and French responsible for Germany growing strong. When Hitler clearly violated terms of Versales treaty by re-militatarization of Rhein land, they just turned away and whistle. They let him grab Austria nad Suddets, they made him strong, they didn't stop him, because they need him to destroy the Soviet Union. Soviets had no choice, allies turned away from them after Munchen. So, when anyone says that USSR started WW2 by tacking back lands that Poland took from Soviets in 20's, I laugh.

	10-01-2004 19:53									#435
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Well..... The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact of 1939 gave Germany the green light to invade Poland just before the war started and allowed for its partition.

Before that, Brits and French gave him green light to re-militarize Rheinland, to grab Austria and Czechoslovakia, btw "poor, innocent" Poland was pretty happy about partition of Czechoslavakia. Guess why?

	10-01-2004 20:18									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos So you deny that the Soviets killed 15 times more people?

Yes.

quote: Hell, they even managed to kill more innocent (non-combatant deaths) people from 1933-45 than the Nazis did.

You must be sick or something. In Soviet Union alone Nazi killed 26,6 millions of people. Only about 9 millions of them were soldiers, others (almost 17 millions) were civilians.

quote: You all were the the worse of two evils. The only reason you all can pretend you are imbued with some sort of virtue from WWII is because had to beat one of you at a time. Lucky for the world you ended up fighting each other for awhile (not for your people however). We got you too, though all of the perpetraters of your holocaust got away.

Then why GB was begging to SU join the war vs. Hitler in 1941? Why USA allied with SU, not with Hitler?
FY. When we were fighting vs. Nazism, you were seating on your well exersised as$es beyond the ocean, acting like cowards. We saved the world from Hitler's plague, now you blame us and start to shout that we were even worse then nazis. FY, once again, ungratefull ****.

quote: The only revisionist is you, as Russians are the only people who think of themselves as angelic fascist bashers.

Where have you been when millions of Russians lost their life to save their country and world from nazi scums, when our cities were in flames, when our children were burned alive?
You were beyond the ocean, drinking whiskey and dancing with you chicks, despite the fact that you were in war with Germany.

quote: You acting inoccent is no more dispicable than a modern German claiming the Jewish holocaust never occured, good thing very few are that stupid.

Really?
In my opinion, the stupid is the one, who believe that Soviet killed 15 times more people than nazi, and who believe that Soviets were worse evil than nazism.
Go ahead, pull some numbers out of your as$, to prove your claim.

	10-01-2004 20:19									#437
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Anti-Soviet scum.

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	10-01-2004 20:22									#438
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Revisionist crap.

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	10-01-2004 20:24									#439
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We will bury you anyway, because

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	10-01-2004 20:27									#440
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You forget Roosevelt's words, ungratefull tinage scoundrel.

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	10-01-2004 20:30									#441
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Revisionism will not win.

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	10-01-2004 20:33									#442
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Everyone who's spreading the lies should

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	10-01-2004 20:34									#443
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Lenin died of syphilis...

	10-01-2004 20:35									#444
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This thread sucks.

	10-01-2004 20:35									#445
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Hey Serb!

Do you think you'll finish before this hits 500?

	10-01-2004 20:36									#446
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Lenin died of syphilis...

Lincoln was gay...

	10-01-2004 20:37									#447
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How dare anyone question the great moral superiority of the Soviet Union!

	10-01-2004 20:37									#448
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Hey Serb! Do you think you'll finish before this hits 500?

I'll finish what?
I'm even not started yet.

	10-01-2004 20:38									#449
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quote: Lincoln was gay...

Yeah, so?

	10-01-2004 20:39									#450
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quote: Yeah, so?

My thoughts exactly.