09-01-2004 10:04									#361
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Serb Then you salute to our traitors/your spies.

I guess that is the way it appears from your point of view. We still see them as patriots who are trying to help Russia.

quote: Originally posted by Serb And I salute to Americans who betrayed USA and shared secret info with Russians. Nice work guys.

A few come to my mind like the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss but I believe there were many more people working for us than against us.

	09-01-2004 10:05									#362
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Yeah, and Patton would have gotten his ass-kicked. Don't let your Civ games fool you.

Wouldn't have had to be Patton being the new SACEUR, but with Lend-leased yanked away from Russia, Britain, The commomwealth, various "liberated" countries, and taking the remnants of wehrmacht added with the American forces...yes, yes I do believe we could crush communism then. Especially when we still held a signifigant strategic advantage over them.

	09-01-2004 10:11									#363
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Serb It's OK. I can handle it myself...I guess, but help is always appreciated bro.

I'm not being a pain on purpose. I enjoy a good discussion with people who see things differently than I do (and Russians do see things differently than most...).

	09-01-2004 10:14									#364
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We would have won.

But to give the Russians credit, as much as you can give mass murderers credit, it would have been a very long and bloody war.

And yeas alot of people have died from Ameica's "freedom wars." But The "15 times the Nazis" the Soviets accomplished, and that is a low figure, was acutually by their hands and not justified in any way by the collateral damage of war arguement (which is not entirely valid). Ie Americans rarely lined people up and mowed them down with machineguns and then threw them in a mass grave. We don't have a system of health spas in Nothern Alaska where 10s of millions found it to be so nice they decided not to come back, ever. And while the Nazis have the infamous reputation as bieng the most efficient killers, I give that to you. You actually let work or the cold kill them instead of wasting the labor though gas chambers. Enjoy the dubious honor.

	09-01-2004 10:15									#365
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Serb Actually it's old Russian saying Khrushev just said it once and scared you to death. Scary fellow, isn't he?

Scary? Not really. He was more of an embarrassment (which ultimately led to his removal ).

BTW: I'm not feeling very "buried" right now. So much for his bluster.

	09-01-2004 10:17									#366
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Serb They guy you are talking about is late Brezhnev. When he was an old fellow, he even wasn't able to swim by himself:

I still love his eyebrows.

	09-01-2004 10:19									#367
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Serb F*ck you Drake. You're just an as$hole. Consider it comes from millions of Russians who lost their lives fighting nazism. F*ck you once again and be you damned, *****. Ok, Ming I'm ready. How long this time? 7? 14?

I'll put in a good word for you.

	09-01-2004 10:22									#368
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Is it wrong if the pictures on these threads have aroused me, physically?

Especially if you are referring to Khruschev and Brezhnev.

	09-01-2004 10:24									#369
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Consider it comes from millions of Russians who lost their lives fighting nazism. While fighting for a regime that was just as evil as Hitler's...

Thats being kind to Stalin. He killed more Russians than Hitler.

	09-01-2004 10:26									#370
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Stalinism ain't that much better than Nazism, buddy. Too bad we didn't let Patton do his thang and lead the new drive to Moscow.

	09-01-2004 10:29									#371
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos But The "15 times the Nazis" the Soviets accomplished...

15 times?? Where the hell did you get this crazy figure? Your propaganda and perhaps history classes at school feed you with such nonsense, and you gladly believe it! Let's see. It is known that the Nazis killed 6 million Jews. Multiply by 15 and obtain 90 million. That's a completely crazy number. You have to be insane to believe that. Furthermore, the Nazis killed much, much more than just 6 million Jews. Make the math. I bet the number will be several times larger than the whole population of the Soviet Union.

	09-01-2004 10:32									#372
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos But to give the Russians credit, as much as you can give mass murderers credit, it would have been a very long and bloody war.

Two years tops. Less than one if we took advantage of our atomic monopoly at the time.

	09-01-2004 10:35									#373
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond 15 times?? Where the hell did you get this crazy figure? Your propaganda and perhaps history classes at school feed you with such nonsense, and you gladly believe it! Let's see. It is known that the Nazis killed 6 million Jews. Multiply by 15 and obtain 90 million. That's a completely crazy number. You have to be insane to believe that. Furthermore, the Nazis killed much, much more than just 6 million Jews. Make the math. I bet the number will be several times larger than the whole population of the Soviet Union.

Gentlemen, lets not quibble over numbers. Can we all at least agree that the Soviets butchered more people at the time than the Nazis?

	09-01-2004 10:42									#374
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond 15 times?? Where the hell did you get this crazy figure? Your propaganda and perhaps history classes at school feed you with such nonsense, and you gladly believe it! Let's see. It is known that the Nazis killed 6 million Jews. Multiply by 15 and obtain 90 million. That's a completely crazy number. You have to be insane to believe that. Furthermore, the Nazis killed much, much more than just 6 million Jews. Make the math. I bet the number will be several times larger than the whole population of the Soviet Union.

Not 6, just 5,998, and some. Just under 6 million. Gypsy, Gays, Handicap etc. between 6 and 8 million. No one really knows because no one care about the Gypsy, Gays, and Handicap. Total between 12 to 14 million or so, not counting Soviet people conquered or any other country that they conquered.

Joe baby, at lease 30 million or more, we just don't really know. I saw his story on the history channel back in Nov. He was making a new list of people to kill when he crooked. If you do not believe this, than there is nothing we can do for you. That would be very sad.

	09-01-2004 10:49									#375
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Gentlemen, lets not quibble over numbers. Can we all at least agree that the Soviets butchered more people at the time than the Nazis?

I don't believe we can. Do you know the numbers?

	09-01-2004 10:56									#376
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Joseph Joe baby, at lease 30 million or more, we just don't really know.

This is the point: you don't really know. Then why do mention so wild numbers? What I read recently in Russian sources specifies the following number: 4 million.

I don't intend to justify Stalin, a murderous maniac. But I am strongly against a wild exaggeration of the number of victims which is a common practice in the West.

	09-01-2004 11:01									#377
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond This is the point: you don't really know. Then why do mention so wild numbers? What I read recently in Russian sources specifies the following number: 4 million. I don't intend to justify Stalin, a murderous maniac. But I am strongly against a wild exaggeration of the number of victims which is a common practice in the West.

You really need to see his story on the History Channel.

	09-01-2004 11:06									#378
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Joseph Joe baby, at lease 30 million or more, we just don't really know.

The population of the Soviet Union was about 150 million back then. Those killed by Stalin were mostly middle-aged men (not too young, nor too old). If your figure is true, this roughly means that one of each two middle-aged men was killed. This is nonsense.

	09-01-2004 11:17									#379
	Increase the size of your Attachments

There was once a powerful tribe in Russia known as the Striker Warriors

feared throughout the land, riding into battle with sword sheath on one side and penis sheath on the other

even stalin feared their power for their length was a fearsome weapon unstoppable by even the cossaks

In the height of his purges, stalin rounded up the the Striker Warriors in one final showdown at the port of Odessa. The NKDV lost hundreds of men and thousands of lamp posts were knocked over. Stalin himself was even poked in the eyeball.

So next time you take a shower and are not feeling like a man, pray for the strength and length of the STRIKER WARRIORS!!!

I MY FRIENDS AM THE LAST OF THE STRIKER WARRIORS!!!

	09-01-2004 11:19									#380
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I don't believe we can. Do you know the numbers?

Of course, but you won't believe them and you'll endlessly argue over the sources. Speak with your neighbors in the former Soviet Union and they'll tell you (the Ukrainians, Chechens, Tatars, Uzbekis, non-bolsheviks, etc., etc., ad nauseum). Open your mind, I dare you.

	09-01-2004 11:23									#381
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Of course, but you won't believe them and you'll endlessly argue over the sources. Speak with your neighbors in the former Soviet Union and they'll tell you (the Ukrainians, Chechens, Tatars, Uzbekis, non-bolsheviks, Striker Warriors, etc., etc., ad nauseum). Open your mind, I dare you.

	09-01-2004 11:24									#382
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Joseph You really need to see his story on the History Channel.

The Russians have that channel? I would think that a country that has a case of collective amnesia over the shame of the past century wouldn't even have a History Channel.

	09-01-2004 11:27									#383
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Joseph You really need to see his story on the History Channel.

Why should I believe the History Channel? The History Channel just stupidly repeats the numbers that are considered common knowledge in the West. These numbers were first mentioned in the 1950s, and it was not a result of a serious study, but rather of a wild and irresponsible guess. And this has been repeated over and over since then. Apparently the West was happy to cling to it, as it was a good propagandistic tool during the Cold War.

	09-01-2004 11:31									#384
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker even stalin feared their power for their length was a fearsome weapon unstoppable by even the cossaks Stalin himself was even poked in the eyeball.

You're talking about what is in the sword sheath, right?

	09-01-2004 11:35									#385
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Of course, but you won't believe them and you'll endlessly argue over the sources. Speak with your neighbors in the former Soviet Union and they'll tell you (the Ukrainians, Chechens, Tatars, Uzbekis, non-bolsheviks, etc., etc., ad nauseum). Open your mind, I dare you.

Why don't you mention Russians in this list. Do you think that they suffered any less from the repressions?

Well, the Chechens suffered more, of course, since they were collectively deported from their land.

	09-01-2004 11:38									#386
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: a country that has a case of collective amnesia over the shame of the past century

Does disagreeing with your wild numbers amount to collective amnesia?

	09-01-2004 12:08									#387
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Why don't you mention Russians in this list. Do you think that they suffered any less from the repressions?

I had Russians in mind when I said non-bolsheviks (those who did not support the revolution). Of course many bolshevik Russians suffered as well due to Stalin's rampant paranoia. History may have taken a different course if Trotsky was in charge instead of Stalin.

	09-01-2004 12:22									#388
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Does disagreeing with your wild numbers amount to collective amnesia?

Not at all, both sides are probably off on the numbers. The collective amnesia kicks in when people start to deny most of what the bolsheviks/communists were responsible for since the revolution. Even a short list of their crimes would be horrific. I hope that at least some people would feel a little shame. That would be the human thing to do.

	09-01-2004 12:22									#389
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 History may have taken a different course if Trotsky was in charge instead of Stalin.

Hows that?

http://www.althist.com/stalin.htm

	09-01-2004 12:44									#390
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Saras Hows that? http://www.althist.com/stalin.htm

Interesting reading but highly speculative and just plain wrong on many counts. (Hitler, left alone, would only kill 2 million Jews?). Trotsky was no saint but he also wasn't the sinner Stalin was. Trotsky left because he was losing a power struggle with Stalin. My "what if" scenario would have started with Trotsky winning the power struggle. Trotsky was an intellectual, Stalin was a brute. Trotsky's beliefs were more in line with Lenin, only a little more moderate. ( Wait a minute, am I defending a bolshevik?!? )

Perhaps our Russian friends can tell us a little bit about Trotsky, I could be wrong on some counts.