09-01-2004 12:54									#391
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You are. Trotsky would have started a war on western powers as soon as 1930-33.

	09-01-2004 12:54									#392
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Not at all, both sides are probably off on the numbers. The collective amnesia kicks in when people start to deny most of what the bolsheviks/communists were responsible for since the revolution. Even a short list of their crimes would be horrific. I hope that at least some people would feel a little shame. That would be the human thing to do.

How do you figure that people don't feel shame for that? And how do you expect this feeling to manifest itself?

Perhaps you expect us, as a manifestation of our ultimate remorse, to disband the Russian Federation, and to invite NATO troops to occupy us?

	09-01-2004 13:04									#393
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Perhaps you expect us, as a manifestation of our ultimate remorse, to disband the Russian Federation, and to invite NATO troops to occupy us?

No, just say "sorry" to the Baltic States, sign the border treaties as there are no territorial disputes and you're just using the not-signing to bully Latvia and Estonia, change the mindset of the Russian population in treating the fall of the empire as something temporary (witness Alksnis), stop hiding butchers of TV Tower of '91, extradite NKVD officers responsible for genocide in the Baltics.

That'd be a nice start.

	09-01-2004 13:13									#394
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Intersting reading, Saras.

I believe this story is right in one thing: Trotsky would have been even a greater disaster in terms of lives lost, and his opportunistic policies on spreading communism would have led to the destruction of Russia. He was not even predisposed to push through the industrialization. Without the latter, there was no way to fight off the Nazis. His only chance was to hope that the revolution would succeed in Germany.

	09-01-2004 13:16									#395
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quote: Originally posted by Saras You are. Trotsky would have started a war on western powers as soon as 1930-33.

I know he strongly believed in spreading the revolution under his "Permanent Revolution" doctrine but that generally meant taking the revolution to the people, not directly attacking anyone (the Red Army wasn't quite that strong yet). This seems to be the point on which Castro and Che Guevara disagreed as well. Castro took more of a Stalinist line and Che the Trotsky line. Of course, taking the revolution to the people didn't work too well for Che either.

	09-01-2004 13:28									#396
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Not 6, just 5,998, and some. Just under 6 million. Gypsy, Gays, Handicap etc. between 6 and 8 million. No one really knows because no one care about the Gypsy, Gays, and Handicap. Total between 12 to 14 million or so, not counting Soviet people conquered or any other country that they conquered. Joe baby, at lease 30 million or more, we just don't really know. I saw his story on the history channel back in Nov. He was making a new list of people to kill when he crooked. If you do not believe this, than there is nothing we can do for you. That would be very sad.

Hitler was responsible for the deaths of +40 million people. That's the number of people killed as a result of his wars and his policies of genocide.

	09-01-2004 13:42									#397
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond How do you figure that people don't feel shame for that? And how do you expect this feeling to manifest itself? Perhaps you expect us, as a manifestation of our ultimate remorse, to disband the Russian Federation, and to invite NATO troops to occupy us?

Nothing so dramatic. Just be willing to accept the truth and be willing to make some amends. We're not that hard to get along with. If we can be friends with Germany and Japan we can be friends with Russia.

Here are some suggestions for self-improvement:
1. Don't be so paranoid. Not everyone is out to get you. (At least not since WW II)
2. Decrease the size of your armed forces while increasing the quality. You'll save lots of money and still be able to handle anything.
3. Reform that economy. No pain, no gain. Be more open to investment, private ownership, new ideas.
4. Respect both your friends and enemies. You'll get the same in return.
5. Smile. Laugh a little. It won't hurt much.

I'll stop here while I still can (and I do realize someone will probably respond in kind...).

	09-01-2004 13:45									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Saras No, just say "sorry" to the Baltic States, sign the border treaties as there are no territorial disputes and you're just using the not-signing to bully Latvia and Estonia, change the mindset of the Russian population in treating the fall of the empire as something temporary (witness Alksnis), stop hiding butchers of TV Tower of '91, extradite NKVD officers responsible for genocide in the Baltics. That'd be a nice start.

There was already a nice start. You just seem not to remember. The Soviet Union was disbanded peacefully. The independence of the Baltics was recognized by the Russian Republic well before the Soviet Union collapsed. (You were even good friends with Yeltsin for quite a while.) The troops were unconditionally withdrawn from Eastern Europe. All this was a manifestation of our "sorry". We disbanded the empire for free, although we could have demanded and received a big buck for that.

"Sorry" is a due, but the nastiness of the current situation (with all the ugly disputes, etc.) doesn't help in providing an appropriate occasion for that. By the way, didn't Yeltsin already say "sorry" many years ago?

I am not aware of the "not-signing" situation with Latvia and Estonia. But perhaps this is a response to how they treat the Russian population in their countries. Hell, the EU admitted them despite all these gross violations of human rights, hipocritical bastards.

About extraditing someone, it's a tough question. You will hardly find any country extraditing its citizens nowadays.

	09-01-2004 13:46									#399
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Intersting reading, Saras.

Yup. Read some other ones on that site. Led to me buying 5 alternative history books

	09-01-2004 13:52									#400
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond There was already a nice start. You just seem not to remember. The Soviet Union was disbanded peacefully. The independence of the Baltics was recognized by the Russian Republic well before the Soviet Union collapsed. (You were even good friends with Yeltsin for quite a while.) The troops were unconditionally withdrawn from Eastern Europe. All this was a manifestation of our "sorry". We disbanded the empire for free, although we could have demanded and received a big buck for that.

Well, we biuld housing in Russia for troops stationed in Lithuania, so it's not "unconditional". Pragmatism from our part, I guess, we were just itching to get them outta here.

But releasing someones balls from pliers and walking away is not a "manifestation" of sorry .

quote: But perhaps this is a response to how they treat the Russian population in their countries.

I'll open a can of worms and call most of them illegal settlers in occupied territory

	09-01-2004 13:55									#401
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Intersting reading, Saras. I believe this story is right in one thing: Trotsky would have been even a greater disaster in terms of lives lost, and his opportunistic policies on spreading communism would have led to the destruction of Russia. He was not even predisposed to push through the industrialization. Without the latter, there was no way to fight off the Nazis. His only chance was to hope that the revolution would succeed in Germany.

I'm sure he saw industrialization as important but he wouldn't have been as brutal as Stalin about it. You are right though, the delay in industrialization would have been fatal when the Nazis attacked. However, that still shouldn't be used to justify Stalin's tactics.

I don't think a revolution in Germany would ever have happened. Their nationalist ideals had little room for communists. Probably would have had a slightly better chance in France.

	09-01-2004 13:58									#402
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Yup. Read some other ones on that site. Led to me buying 5 alternative history books

My interest in alternative history is piqued as well. I'll try to do some research and come up with an alternate timeline of my own. If you like alt history books then you'll probably love those written by Harry Turtledove.

	09-01-2004 14:22									#403
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Nothing so dramatic. Just be willing to accept the truth and be willing to make some amends.

The Russian people already accept the truth, more or less. Of course, more sould be done in this direction. But the problem is that the truth and what you believe to be the truth may be quite different.

quote: We're not that hard to get along with. If we can be friends with Germany and Japan we can be friends with Russia.

I certainly hope so.

quote: Here are some suggestions for self-improvement: 1. Don't be so paranoid. Not everyone is out to get you. (At least not since WW II)

Russia has good reasons to be paranoid. But I believe we should learn to better conceal this paranoidness.

quote: 2. Decrease the size of your armed forces while increasing the quality. You'll save lots of money and still be able to handle anything. 3. Reform that economy. No pain, no gain. Be more open to investment, private ownership, new ideas.

This has been under way for quite a while. Didn't you know?

quote: 4. Respect both your friends and enemies. You'll get the same in return.

I don't remeber any case of unilateral disrespect recently.

quote: 5. Smile. Laugh a little. It won't hurt much.

How do you figure we don't smiile and laugh. OTOH it's true that Russians are less predisposed to smile to an unknown person. But when they do smile, their smiles are more sincere.

	09-01-2004 14:54									#404
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The Russian people already accept the truth, more or less. Of course, more sould be done in this direction. But the problem is that the truth and what you believe to be the truth may be quite different.

More or less?
You're right about the truth. I've heard that its a three edged sword. There's your truth, my truth, and the real truth.

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I certainly hope so.

So do I.

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond This has been under way for quite a while. Didn't you know?

Yes, albeit reluctantly.

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I don't remeber any case of unilateral disrespect recently.

It probably wasn't recent (or unilateral).

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond How do you figure we don't smiile and laugh. OTOH it's true that Russians are less predisposed to smile to an unknown person. But when they do smile, their smiles are more sincere.

I guess its understandable to be more reserved around strangers. I tend to treat people as equals until they prove themselves otherwise.

Looks like we largely agree. A step forward for international relations.

	09-01-2004 14:56									#405
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Well, we biuld housing in Russia for troops stationed in Lithuania, so it's not "unconditional". Pragmatism from our part, I guess, we were just itching to get them outta here.

OK, let's say "practically/almost unconditional". You surely realize that the barracks you (and others) built compensated just for a minor fraction of the total losses.

quote: But releasing someones balls from pliers and walking away is not a "manifestation" of sorry .

To a certain extent it is, provided that the release was unconditional and voluntary. Furthermore, the one who had your balls in the pliers was delusional enough not to realize that your balls were there. On the contrary, this one believed you were an equal member of a big and happy family.

quote: I'll open a can of worms and call most of them illegal settlers in occupied territory

If you want to play it this way, just tell it loudly, openly and frankly. I wonder whether the EU is hipocritical enough to admit you even in such circumstances.

	09-01-2004 15:05									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Looks like we largely agree. A step forward for international relations.

OK, let us seal an agreement, for today.

	09-01-2004 15:08									#407
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond OK, let us seal an agreement, for today.

Agreed.

	09-01-2004 16:52									#408
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond OK, let's say "practically/almost unconditional". You surely realize that the barracks you (and others) built compensated just for a minor fraction of the total losses.

You guys also left lots of polluted land behind and did not clean up

quote: To a certain extent it is, provided that the release was unconditional and voluntary. Furthermore, the one who had your balls in the pliers was delusional enough not to realize that your balls were there. On the contrary, this one believed you were an equal member of a big and happy family.

Oh come on, everyone knew what was going on.

quote: If you want to play it this way, just tell it loudly, openly and frankly. I wonder whether the EU is hipocritical enough to admit you even in such circumstances.

That's one valid pov I expressed. It's not mine, but there is a lot of validity to it.

	09-01-2004 16:59									#409
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The bottom line though is that when you f with the Striker Warriors, you get f'ed

Last edited by Ted Striker on 09-01-2004 at 17:06

	09-01-2004 17:04									#410
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SO what are you saying? Striker Warriors are gay?

	09-01-2004 17:06									#411
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hye wait a minute

i should rephrase our ancient battle call

	09-01-2004 17:07									#412
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Player are you on speed?

	09-01-2004 18:01									#413
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Vagabond, did you just say earlier that you could have demanded big bucks from the baltic countries? Are you serious? You were occupying them for decades! They should have got reparations from you! Just how bully can russians be?

	09-01-2004 18:07									#414
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Ted Stirker, much better now

	09-01-2004 18:09									#415
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"Death by Government" by Rommel

http://www.fff.org/freedom/1094f.asp

Since it seems people are willing to stretch the upper limit for the generally accepted 6 million death Jewish holocaust figure by 30-40 percent to 8-9 million (not a bad case for this) then we would give the 61,911,000 fgure the same scrutiny. even more so becasue there is far less ability to actually verify and or discover hidden atrocities in this case. So 90 million is a very viable number.

Three are problems with this book though, in that it counts all Nazi civilian war dead as an atrocity (arial bombing and such) while not giving the same distiction for other players, a la Soviets. It also discounts the 200 million that starved in the Chinese Great Leap Forward.

As for you only having 150 million population in WWII, you are of course correct. You problem is that unilke the Nazis who killed from 1933-45, you hade from the 1916-87. But then again, as has been stated, you STILL managed to kill more civionas in the 33-45 period with the Nazis trying their best and bending over backwards to do so, in your case it was just a side effect of you NORMAL POLICY!

	09-01-2004 20:12									#416
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Sh!t, can't believe some idiots are trying to make the Nazis look like good guys.

Get it straight. The Nazis were a bunch of ****in cowards who went around killing old women and children. They weren't brave. They weren't heros. They were pieces of scum.

	09-01-2004 22:55									#417
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Get it straight. The Nazis were a bunch of ****in cowards who went around killing old women and children. They weren't brave. They weren't heros. They were pieces of scum.

Nazis or Germans?

If Nazis, then all Nazis?

If Michael Wittman wasn't brave I don't know who was.

	09-01-2004 23:02									#418
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Tingkai, nobody here has painted the Nazi's as anything but despicable, we are just stating the fact that the Soviets are worse. This doesn't downgrade the atrocities of the Nazis unless you are unrationally emotional and can only condem one group at a time.

And although we can't fathom why someone would believe in Nazism, if they did in fact believe truly then they can fight for it with distinction, bravery and heroism like any other cause.

	10-01-2004 00:35									#419
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Hm, not that Iīm a fan of Serbīs style, but I find it hard to say whatīs worse when we speak in dimensions of millions of victims. Also most of the numbers esp. about Stalinīs rule are rather gross estimations, so Iīd be careful there.

And the Nazi rule had some unique elements, eg. the holocaust as organized attempt to wipe out an entire people completely is something that not happened anywhere else in this dimension.

	10-01-2004 00:53									#420
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond This has been under way for quite a while. Didn't you know?

Then explain the sad fate of Lukoil.