28-12-2003 23:05									#1
	What Civ 4 needs: New Look Tired of ads?

IMO, the look and feel of Civ 3 was too comic, colorful, bland and gamish. I'd like Civ 4 to go back to appearing serious, historical, stylised and Civ themed, instead of disney- style. Like Imperialism was, and even CTP 1. Civ 2 kept it simple. 4 should emphasis on the history and seriousness that is Civ. Most players are older than 16 anyway, so why make it look like a kiddie game? Thats the impression Civ 3 gives me.
What do you all think?

	29-12-2003 00:14									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I was never bothered by the light-hearted appearances of the civilization leaders and my advisors.

	29-12-2003 01:13									#3
	Tired of ads?

I agree with getting rid of the "gaminess."

Almost all of the "atmosphere" of Civ 3 served merely to draw me out of the game.

I don't mind that Civ 3 had some humor added, but I would mind if Civ 4 followed suit.

	29-12-2003 02:09									#4
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I liked the basic look of Civ 2. I felt that all the information I needed was at my finger tips. Just by going down a menu, I could get all the information I needed. Now, just add better graphics, and the look could be great.

	29-12-2003 05:03									#5
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I would just like it to be les bubbly. I liked Civ II's general look- everything was clean and easily accessable. Perhaps they could 'streamline' it and make it look like Galactic Civ's strong interface (but in a civII way) and have the bars different colors... but be in strong rectangles and bars.

I actually liked the cartoony advisors... but didn't really like the cartoony leaders- these are nations great leaders for heavens sake! Give them their dignity!

This is a game for strategists and wargamers not for 8-year old kids Even the mass market isn't as 'fluffy' as Firaxis seems to believe

	29-12-2003 06:00									#6
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Civ 4 can become a serious civilization growth and war gaming experience - if they aim it for the 18+ year old market. Most younger players (not all) want shoot to kill games or cartoony graphics games. If they try to please all levels they will end up pleasing very few if any.

For Conquests they used a serious wargaming type of company with Breakaway. They should use them to help with the design and then production of Civ4 - (for adults).

Computer games companies need to realize that adults will play serious and realistic computer games, just as much as kids will play simplistic and frivilous games.

	29-12-2003 09:41									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I can't believe how ignorant you are. I started playing civ when I was eleven.

	29-12-2003 11:55									#8
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I was 10 when I started.

	29-12-2003 11:59									#9
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Still, most players, even the younger ones, think that, although the cartoony leaders and advisors are funny, they don't add to the game.

	29-12-2003 12:56									#10
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lets get with the Program, This is not Buzz Lightyear, my Dad plays this.

	29-12-2003 21:25									#11
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Skywalker, I started Civ 2 when I was 10.
Do you like the bubbly look of 3?

	29-12-2003 22:11									#12
	Tired of ads?

I dislike the fact that C3 isn't windowed like C2 was (it takes a bit longer to alt-tab out of C3, so it's more risky playing it when I'm supposed to be doing homework ) but I actually like the look-and-feel of C3 better. It doesn't feel "cartoony" to me, but rather "civvy". C2 seemed too austere.

	29-12-2003 22:48									#13
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I'd rather see a darker, more serious "epic" civ. Civ3 was a bit childish, especially some of the unit animations, the advisors and leaderheads. Also the look of the map is a bit bland and smooth. I'd prefer to see darker forests, craggy mountains, bleak wastelands, as well as lush grasslands and rolling plains.

Just my 3 cents

-Jam

	29-12-2003 22:49									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Use Sn00py's graphics

	29-12-2003 23:04									#15
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I like SnOOpy's graphics, but more varied. Cliffs, badlands, sand dunes, mesa's, so on and so forth....

back on topic -

I am not opposed to the 'bubbly' look. I prefer the windows environment that civ 2 was in, particularly the drop down menus.

The inherent humer (gotta love having Elvis as an advisor) has always been a part of civ, and I miss it now that it isn't there as much as it was in civ 1 & 2. Don't get me wrong, Civ3 is OK, but nothing great. Nothing on the epic scale of Cheese.

I could do with it looking a little less like a cartoon, with the leaderheads. To tell the truth, I could do without the leaderheads all together.

	30-12-2003 01:34									#16
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If I could buy the basic game for $20, and have to pay an extra $15 for better graphics, I'd just buy the basic game. Probably helped that until around Civ III came out, I couldn't figure out how to get scenario graphics to work.

	30-12-2003 22:40									#17
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quote: I'd rather see a darker, more serious "epic" civ

Well, I'm not for darker (Alpha C's many blacks annoyed me) but a streamlined space-age style look sort of like Gal Civ's would be acceptable- it would be 'efficient/'cool'' without being too dark and it wouldn't be overly bubbly and fluffy.

Although fluffy advisors are always fun let's please not degrade great rulers into cartoons

	30-12-2003 22:47									#18
	Got spare money?

Well, I started to play Civ when I was 7 , and it was Civ 1. Now I continue playing (I'm 18) and I like the way how well the graphics have improved from version to version

Cartoony leaders or advisors? I never thought that. My thoughts just were "excellent, they have improved the graphics!!".

If you want to make Civ4 little more serious, ok, do it, but with a better graphic quality.

How should be the advisors and leaders for you in Civ4, inmobile?.. come on...

	30-12-2003 23:23									#19
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I like the leaders, but after reading this thread I'm agree that they could be more serious.

And I' like to change the mood of my leader just like in CTP2.

	30-12-2003 23:29									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Well, I'm not for darker (Alpha C's many blacks annoyed me) but a streamlined space-age style look sort of like Gal Civ's would be acceptable- it would be 'efficient/'cool'' without being too dark and it wouldn't be overly bubbly and fluffy.

I think a "space-age" look should be for the Modern Era. During the Industrial Era it should have, well, and industrial look (brick and ash and stuff). During the Medievel Era it should look castle-y (or maybe if you're an Asian civ, it should look like those funky Japanese thingies). I'm not sure what it should look like during the Ancient Era.

	31-12-2003 23:20									#21
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quote: How should be the advisors and leaders for you in Civ4, inmobile?.. come on...

I never said immobile. I wanted the advisors and leaders to look like Civ II's advisors.

Perhaps my tastes differ from most peoples- I considered Civ III's graphics horrible... But I also consider Neverwinter Nights's graphics horrible and Warcraft3's... I can't see anything with them- the latter 2 are too shadowy and dark and detailed and the former are too bubbly and fat.

Civ II's graphics were by far the best of the series- easy to edit, easy to change, easy to work with.

quote: If you want to make Civ4 little more serious, ok, do it, but with a better graphic quality.

Indeed, I agree- angular edges. Use Piet Mondrián as inspiration- not some trashy painting of a Ziggurat

I like graphics like Icewind Dale II, Baldurs Gate I, etc... clean graphics where I can actually see what's going on... like Empire Earth (for a more recent example) or even Age of Empires... But I also realize that Empire Earth and AoE units would look strange on a civ-field.

Civ is a war-strategy game with units that are on a flat field... if the world was spherical, then units like those in EE and AoE would look good, but it is not- therefore, it is better to model the units like game-pieces... or if you must have 3D or semi-3D units, then model the world like Shogun:Total War does, with broad plateaus of land rather than small squares... and place the units in pieces of them... make civ like Risk if you want it to look good with 3D units.

SAMUEL

quote: And I' like to change the mood of my leader just like in CTP2.

That sounds intriguing please elaborate!

--
Skywalker
Intriguing idea as well about the chaning interface, but we probably don't want to overdo it. Or make any one interface too cluttered. I would suggest only 4... to symbolize the four 'ages' of development.

Ancient---
"Middle Ages"--- To start with Philosophy's discovery
Industrial--- To start with the Steam Engine
Space Age--- To start with the invention of the Tank

I believe that this is a reasonably good idea although I would be happy if the interface never changed...

	31-12-2003 23:32									#22
	Tired of ads?

I think that they should go with the Eras, not with some random tech. But yeah, that's the basic idea.

quote: That sounds intriguing please elaborate!

In CtP2 you could talk "Magnamiously", "Friendly", "Obsequiously", "Something-ly", and "Something-else-ly". (The last one was "hostile" or something). It wasn't really all that useful. It's just if you were stronger than them, you'd get better results from "Magnamious", if you were equal you'd get better results from "Friendly", etc.

	01-01-2004 00:56									#23
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Jamski I'd rather see a darker, more serious "epic" civ. Civ3 was a bit childish, especially some of the unit animations, the advisors and leaderheads. Also the look of the map is a bit bland and smooth. I'd prefer to see darker forests, craggy mountains, bleak wastelands, as well as lush grasslands and rolling plains. Just my 3 cents

I agree, I think the graphics of the game could be more refined and that the leaders etc should be more esteemed looking throughout. Some of them should be historically accurate, however you still need to leave room for the variation of creating fictional cultures. I like that they change over time.

I also agree 100% about the graphics you stare at 100% of the time. All hills should not look the same, have some of them connecting from tile to tile to form a foothills section before the mountins.

A little stretch, but give me some lattitude, how about a full blown 3D terrain generator that accomplishes altitdude. The higher units could have an attack/defense bonus, how neat would that be.


-So make that 5 cents total!

	01-01-2004 08:27									#24
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quote: In CtP2 you could talk "Magnamiously", "Friendly", "Obsequiously", "Something-ly", and "Something-else-ly". (The last one was "hostile" or something). It wasn't really all that useful. It's just if you were stronger than them, you'd get better results from "Magnamious", if you were equal you'd get better results from "Friendly", etc.

Hmm... sounds useless in that form, since after the player figured out the formula (and it's an easy formula to figure out) he'd have it made... and if he didn't figure it out- then he'd have troubles.

if they made it more complicated by associating moods with Cultural Traits... then there would be more strategy..

For example:

If Babylon is Agressive/Expansionary and you talk magnanimously instead of threateningly, then Babylon will have a 75% chance to ignore your attempt to sue for peace... but if you talk threateningly, then they will have a 50% chance to allow you to sue for peace.

	01-01-2004 08:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by POTUS I was 10 when I started.

Ah, I see we're getting into one of these contests. I started civ at the age of five.

	01-01-2004 08:44									#26
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I definitely agree with no cartoony leaderheads. I also didn't like the cartoony advisors.

I think interfaces that changed by era would be cool. For example, industrial era interface would look kind of steel-colored, ancient age would be sandy brown like CivIII's interface.

	01-01-2004 09:55									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Ah, I see we're getting into one of these contests. I started civ at the age of five.

I didn't mean to start it - I was pointing out that civ is not just for the 18 and older crowd.

	01-01-2004 09:55									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Hmm... sounds useless in that form, since after the player figured out the formula (and it's an easy formula to figure out) he'd have it made... and if he didn't figure it out- then he'd have troubles. if they made it more complicated by associating moods with Cultural Traits... then there would be more strategy.. For example: If Babylon is Agressive/Expansionary and you talk magnanimously instead of threateningly, then Babylon will have a 75% chance to ignore your attempt to sue for peace... but if you talk threateningly, then they will have a 50% chance to allow you to sue for peace.

:vomit:

	01-01-2004 19:14									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

i agree DarkCloud, that Civ3 graphics were bad. II ruled.

	01-01-2004 19:27									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I don't mind the cartoony advisors. Wouldn't even mind if they were Disney characters. But the leaders really should be less cartoony. How can I take trading world maps seriously when Catherine the Great is saying "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." (Which is a ghastly thought anyway )