29-12-2003 12:45									#1
	Do you play to win or do you play for fun? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Its probably the most Common thread in Any MP intensive game forums.

Do you play for fun or do you play to win?

- Everyone plays to "win" to a degree. And no one plays the game even though they dont want to. So everyone plays for fun and to win.

- Some games you cant really "win". Like The Sims or MMORPG. But you can always play better and faster than anyone else. So I guess a better question to ask is whether you play competitively or not.

- Even in single play games and Co-op games, you could ask that question (for those who are extremly competitive) You can always get more scores, play better game agst AI in non VS game too.

So think about it. What kind of player are you?

A good site on this topic
http://www.sirlin.net

	29-12-2003 12:57									#2
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To win or to be the best, I guess. Which is probably why I am a SP gamer mainly.

	29-12-2003 13:18									#3
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ha! so you play to win, but you avoid playing when you cant win.

so then you ARE the best!!!!111!!!

	29-12-2003 13:27									#4
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the point of games is to win. fun is just something that happens during winning.

but seriously, it really depends on a lot of stuff like who i'm playing with, what game it is, if i am any good or not, if i am still learning how to play, etc... if the game is primarily skill based then in the long run i play to win and have the most fun being very competitive, but if a game is mostly luck(or a good amount) i might just play for fun and usually the social aspects of it.

	29-12-2003 13:37									#5
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Almost every game has an uncontrollable factor. Its what you make out of what you can control that is skill/strategy based.

I cant really name any game that requires just luck to win the game other than R.P.S. Unless you're one of those ppl that think card games are all luck and won't play competitively...

	29-12-2003 16:16									#6
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I can play competitively, the stress factor turns me off though.

	29-12-2003 16:25									#7
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quote: Originally posted by pg the point of games is to win. fun is just something that happens during winning.

The point of games is to have fun. Winning is just something that happens during playing.

	29-12-2003 16:55									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I play some games as 'friendlies' with mates, but other than that I always play to win. It's near impossible to be competitive at MP without pulling out all the stops. The same is true to a lesser extent for SP comparison games, which are my favourite way of playing Civ.

	29-12-2003 18:14									#9
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I play to win AND for fun. Therefore almost no MP, because I lose and its no fun I'd rather lose and have fun though, than win and be bored.

-Jam

	29-12-2003 18:15									#10
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I defently play for fun...

e.g. I play SimCity, which is a game where you can't "win" (Unless you set your own goals)

	29-12-2003 18:25									#11
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I hate games like simcity

there's no goal, nothing to look forward to. How the hell can a game be interesting then... I just got bored with it after 5 minutes. After all it's the same thing every new map you play!

in my fav FPS I play for fun; winning or losing is just something that happens, however it's more fun if you win a close clanbattle than losing it.

But in the end I just want to have a good game, and that's possible too if you are losing!

	29-12-2003 23:04									#12
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i play for fun. if i win and have fun too, good. if i lose but still have fun, that's good too.

but i'm not the competitive type at all. it simply doesn't make sense to me anymore. back when i used to play those arcade games, i liked to have some competition. but not now. maybe i'm getting older and wiser.

	29-12-2003 23:13									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ADG: Like I said. You can "Win" even in Simcity. Setting your own goals, yeah. Or you can outplay other players. While my friends stare at people walking around and make stupid decisions, I would probably figure out mechanics of how police and firedepartment works and efficiently place them to sav money thus allowing me to build a better city etc...

Skanky: That depends on how seriously you take your game I guess. You can take it to a pretty competitive level and yet not be so stressed about it. Those who stress about video game is probably taking it a bit too far. It is after all, only a game. I admit though I do get stress out not when I lose, but when I cannot perform to a level I know I can achieve due to choking and etc...

Trajanus: these kind of games are meant for people who enjoy accumulating (to fill the need to collect etc). I do agree games like simcity is like RTS without an opponent (ever continued game after winning the game? ) but it can be fun in its own way....

Jamski: Something you said is so true. You can play for fun, but you largely get pleasure from accomplishing something. All kinds of game human beings play, whetherit be a puzzle or MMORPG, has some kind of goal given or set by us. And accomplishing that gives us pleasure or fun. Even someone who isnt competitive can see that. Losing all the time isnt fun, unless you're really driven to learn how to play that game. I've never got my friends into a game I like by constantly kicking their asses.

	29-12-2003 23:24									#14
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For those who say they dont care at all about winning:

how can you enjoy a game(especially VS:duel:deathmatch) without trying to win at all. Idea is to win/achieve some goal. There will be players out there that are so good that they wont even let you do ANYTHING. You wont get to shoot them even once in FPS, you wont be building anything in RTS, you'll be comboed forever in fighting game, you'll lose to 100-0 in sports games... If you wanna actually end up playing the game you actually NEED to get better to even begin playing. In order to do that, you have to play to win IMO. Seize all opportunity, learn from your opponent what he's doing, play competitively.

Sure, you can hide away from the world and play a dumbed down game. But is that really playing that game? Is playing chess with a 4 year old playing chess at all?

Name one game you enjoy alot. Say we played 1v1 and I own you so hard. you dont even have time to move your mouse/controller. Will you keep playing? Then ask if you would enjoy the game if you dont win.

I know the answer in my situation. Even if I play to win, I can enjoy a losing game. Perhaps I enjoy a losing game even more than a winning game. Cause eventually I want to get better, read my opponent, achieve my objective. So I lose, but losing gets me to winning.

	29-12-2003 23:34									#15
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I play to win in everything I do.
But if winning is no fun, I don't bother playing unless i have no choice.
But I can have fun without winning.

Quite simple.

	30-12-2003 01:49									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I play for fun. This means games that I can't win I will still play, and games that I routinely win I will stop playing. The game must be a challenge to be fun. If I played to win, I'd always play at the lowest level difficulty. I do the opposite, because it's harder and therefore more fun.

	30-12-2003 02:31									#17
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I try to play the best game I can, I feel that is what my opponent expects of me and what I expect of him.
(without cheating).
I have no problem with playing just for fun either if everyone is, however I will usually loose interest pretty quickly.

That's why I often prefer to play for money (doesn't have to be much, just enough to get everyone sharp and to prevent to have someone to start doing silly things and ruin a game that's been underway for a couple of hours)

	30-12-2003 03:04									#18
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fer fun

	30-12-2003 03:26									#19
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Okay, I read the Sirlin articles (interesting site) and have to say I actually play both for fun and to win, depends on the game. In MP, I'll almost always play to win, although some times I experiment with stuff that I find fun, but that's more looking for new strategies than whatever.
In SP, I play for fun in the sense there is noone to beat so I have nothing to prove. I can build up as many mental barriers as I want in my way to play as I am the only one concerned. (A typical barrier being that I'll always play ironman if I can - crashing/corrupted games sometimes prevetn that and require saves).
So I should change my vote back...
But then I don't do much MP (at least on a computer).

	30-12-2003 04:55									#20
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MP you HAVE to play to win, otherwise you spoil the game for your opponent(s)

-Jam

	30-12-2003 05:06									#21
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Like most people I play to win.
My enjoyment of a game comes through trying to win.

	30-12-2003 05:20									#22
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quote: But is that really playing that game? Is playing chess with a 4 year old playing chess at all?

Yes.

quote: Will you keep playing? Then ask if you would enjoy the game if you dont win.

I can lose so long as I'm allowed to have fun in defeat. If you "own me hard", I have no chance to actually enjoy the game and therefore will not play against you in the future.
This is why I enjoy Civ, beause it allows me to have fun.

	30-12-2003 05:35									#23
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Winning is for losers, you learn more losing.

Having said that, i MP to win, and win i do, therefore i own 4nd r a l0s4rzxxx.

	30-12-2003 07:19									#24
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I play for fun... don't have the time to delve into a new game, don't have the reflexes for most MP games, don't have the temperment to deal with being called a "n00b" by some kid who just learned to wipe his ass properly.

	30-12-2003 08:09									#25
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I play for fun. Focusing on minmaxing exclusively isn't fun.

	30-12-2003 12:19									#26
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It depends. I play board games and card games for fun, mostly. Some games aren't designed for players to have fun, however. Computer games I play to win, but if I can't have fun while playing the game, I won't play it.

	30-12-2003 14:22									#27
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playing with 4yr old(assuming he/she is no prodigy) is not the same game.

Imagine playing Rock paper scissor. But whenever you throw down scissor and kid throws down rock, you win... just because the kid doesnt know how to play RPS. Thats how its gonna be when you play with scrubtastic ppl. Yeah it looks like you're playing the same game, but no in actuality you're not.

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I can lose so long as I'm allowed to have fun in defeat. If you "own me hard", I have no chance to actually enjoy the game and therefore will not play against you in the future.

Why cant you enjoy me owning you so hard? Is it because you have absolutely no chance at winning? But if I beat you and you actually had a chance at winning (Our skill level isnt that different) you would enjoy it? Seems like possibility of you being able to win does matter for you. If it didnt you would still enjoy me owning you hard.

	30-12-2003 14:26									#28
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quote: Originally posted by alva I try to play the best game I can, I feel that is what my opponent expects of me and what I expect of him. (without cheating). I have no problem with playing just for fun either if everyone is, however I will usually loose interest pretty quickly. That's why I often prefer to play for money (doesn't have to be much, just enough to get everyone sharp and to prevent to have someone to start doing silly things and ruin a game that's been underway for a couple of hours)

thats why you're an awesome guy alva.

	30-12-2003 14:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I play for fun. This means games that I can't win I will still play, and games that I routinely win I will stop playing. The game must be a challenge to be fun. If I played to win, I'd always play at the lowest level difficulty. I do the opposite, because it's harder and therefore more fun.

Ok. you pointed out something good. Within people who play to win, there are two types of ppl.

-Ones who play to win, and will only play when they can win. (Non comps who satisfy their egos/ self esteem)
-Ones who play to win, and will try to win even when they have almost no hopes. (Competitive ones who challenge themselves)

Sounds like to me, you play to win, but your the latter example.

	30-12-2003 16:26									#30
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quote: If it didnt you would still enjoy me owning you hard.

No. If you gave me a chance to have fun...Let me has some sort of struggle, however futile...I would have fun.
if I can bairly move my units around before you wiping me out, there is no pleasure.