29-12-2003 23:43									#1
	phewey! Cities subverted! Full PM-box? Change here!

Okay I was just playing a game last night, Warlord ( sorry I am still a beginner ) as the Babylonians. To my north I had Iroquois, Persians, and to my east, Zulus. All of a sudden, around the medieval era, about 5 of enemy cities got subverted to my empire!

????

What makes them subvert? Culture? Why did so many subvert? Is it because the babylonians are both Scientific and Religious and can build culture producing buildings very easily?

	29-12-2003 23:50									#2
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superior culture. both empire to empire, and surrounding cities.

basically, if you have more culture than nearby cities, you're likely to flip 'em.

	30-12-2003 00:39									#3
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Yep, your empire is just so cool that everyone wants to be like you!

Check out the Cultrue Graph in the Victory Status screen (the 'V' button on the lower right-hand box). Your shaded area is probably MUCH larger than any of your neighbors'. You can also check the first page of the Victory Status screen and it will tell you your total culture as well as that of your closest rival.

That's what they get for not putting Libraries and Temples in their border towns.

NOTE: Next time you play a diferent civ, make sure that your bordr towns don't flip to your neighbors.

It looks like you're well on your way to a Cultural Victory. All it takes is at least 100k cultre per empire (or 20k per city) and to be at least twice as large as your closest rival.

Happy Culture Bombing!!!!

	30-12-2003 02:03									#4
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Thank you!

I came close to a cultural victory, but I managed to win diplomatically at 1355 AD


Another question though... does propaganda work the same way?

	30-12-2003 04:14									#5
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Ive never had any success with propaganda, so I never even bother trying anymore.

I think you would need to catch a civ with very high war weariness or rebellions taking place to stand any chance, and I dont think they would join you if you were a traditional enemy or at war with them when the attempt was made.

Having said all that I dont really know for sure, but its not exactly the same mechanism as culture flipping only the city targetted must like you more than its own government.

vmxa or Theseus or others might have a better answer than mine

	30-12-2003 04:19									#6
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Yeah, but getting them in here is another story...they're never around.

Regarding propaganda, I don't think I have ever been able to get it to work so I never use it anymore. I think Chrisius is right about it though.

	30-12-2003 05:38									#7
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Wow 5 cities. Well Babs are the culture kings in civ.

	30-12-2003 07:20									#8
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I don;t know jack about propaganda, other than that when AI civs try it on me I get P*SSED! It's a virtual death sentence.

	30-12-2003 09:34									#9
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Apple, I have tried the propaganda thing once or twice and I think that one time it even worked. However, there are lots more useful things to do with your gold. Propaganda usually, IIRC, takes a fair amount of gold to do and there's no guarantee that it will work.

If you want the city bad enough and your 'Superior Culture' doesn't quite get it for you, then you can try Propaganda, but I recommend either ignoring it, or even better--just take it. (And if there's lots of resistance and/or high culture, then burn it to the ground and plant your own city there.)

	30-12-2003 22:31									#10
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Well, at least they gave us the option. It never worked FOR ME, but made wonders against me during some games (the ones I tried to be the amazing WarMetalWarmongermon).

	31-12-2003 07:36									#11
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Best defence against culture-flip is a temple, so that you can get the surrounding squares under your control and into the equation. The other step you should always take, is a unit in the city for every foreign citizen there. If this is a pain, do the city over with arty first. This becomes the path ind. age onwards. Once you get to the modern area, you have so many units and can conquer so quick, you can probably just take the cities without bombing - civ gone, no flips

Anyway - my short treatise on culture/culture flip prevention
No need for razing, if you're careful.

	31-12-2003 09:30									#12
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Who needs culture? You could've taken all those cities by force.

	31-12-2003 09:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX superior culture. both empire to empire, and surrounding cities. basically, if you have more culture than nearby cities, you're likely to flip 'em.

Actually, the three factors are total empire culture, distance to capital, and how many of the workable tiles are foreign territory.

	31-12-2003 20:32									#14
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Here's the Firaxian's Official word on Culture-Flipping.

Fitz creates the formula here

And finally, here's some more rants on the subject.

Steven

	31-12-2003 21:00									#15
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I used to play for culture wins only. I think 4 cities was the most I got at one time. In one game as Egypt I had over 20 cities flip to me over the the course of the game. Then the other civis got mad and attacked me. I also had 2 captured cities revert back. Does seem like after a while your borders are just to far from the capitol or FP to get culture flips in the modern era.

It is my opinion that culture also helps keep ww down. Since I started playing militaristic, ww seems to be more of a factor. When I was top in culture ww seemed to be less of a factor, also once my border cities started building culture coruption would fall below 50%.

	02-01-2004 16:19									#16
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As a result of following this thread I decided to dabble with propaganda again.

Its modern times and several civs have been at war with several others for quite some time, including my civ the Arabs. My people are estatically happy as they have all 8 lux and most cities have all culture?happiness improvements etc. The Dutch are second in score and very wealthy. I have several lucrative deals with them supplying lux and resources.

The Zulu have been wiped out and several civ hold their former cities, but the Dutch fell into anarchy either due to WW or change of gov not sure.

I spotted this on the mil advisor screen and thought hmm.

I managed to take 3 former Zulu cities with my spy easily, though a 4th Swazi wont flip at the moment. Im cutting roads to Swazi and will try again if they are still in anarchy in a few turns. A fourth city, forget its name for now but right on the edge of the Dutch main core, size 2 I think, also flipped for 157 gold .

This fourth city is a great prize as I can garrison it to the brink via airports and apply even more pressure if I wish. I do have rop with them so it would have to finish before any war but at the moment my culture seems to be enough to pinch and trim their empire.

The key reasons why this has worked are my superior culture and all 8 luxeries, (dont know if the fact that I have supplied most of their lux throughout the game has any effect) my superior size? there state of anarchy. I expected success with the former Zulu towns but the Dutch one was a most pleasent surprise.