29-12-2003 23:58									#1
	What is a definition of a "good game" for you. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Question is what makes games good not what makes games fun (although fun can be factor). Reason for this is that you dont have to enjoy the game personally, but you can appreciate a fine made game. Anyway, moving on.

Me and my friend was playing Guilty Gear XX:reloaded last night and this question plagued my mind as I was playing it. While we were downloading it (hehe modded ps2) I was filling him up with excitement about the good things I've heard about this game. When we played, he absolutely hated it. Even though the game had incredibly sophisticated battling system, he kept concluding that this was not a good game because there was 1) no solid story plot 2)poor character design 3)bad graphics

1) I thought games like quake and pac man is considered a great game by everyone. Well I dont see them having a solid story plot. Oh and chess? Well, there once was a great king in this far away kingdom. He was a ****ing wooden block who could only move one square in this checkered 8X8 land... blah blah blah... yeah ok.

2) character design. Meh. So he picked a transvestite nurse who attacks with a yoyo and almost threw up after I said "dude I wouldnt say that 'she' is a guy". I admit bizarre character that can be only be fathomed by the insane japanese/anime game designers is a bit of an acquired taste. But cant anyone find some humor in this and enjoy it? or does every character have to be a dark possessed evil shiloeted dude, captain america, or chick with big hooters?

3) Meh. I give up...


So how do you judge what makes a good game? I always thought a great gameplay is all thats needed. Since when did games become a movie? Why does everyone want to watch long ass mpeg file between every 2 min of their playing time? Those lunatics should go play Metal gear solid 2.

	30-12-2003 01:45									#2
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Gameplay matters most, but it's the 'new' things provided by gameplay that matter.
Your friend probably wanted something 'new' or netter than what existed. I don't know the game, so I can't talk about gameplay, but most games are not innovative as far as gameplay is concerned. All FPS are FPS, RTS are RTS, and don't have many differences between one another. If you look at civ games, the gameplay differences between the various titles are not many: Public works/Workers is probably the biggest difference between the titles. Then comes ai/difficulty and moddability.

What are the differences between the games? Storyline (civ = Earth, SMAC = Mankind landed on Alpha Centaury, Galciv and MOO = space conquest), character design (unit design), and graphics.

For me a good game is a highly replayable game, like civ or Nethack. But what makes for a replayable game? I also like games of reflection/strategy on those of reflexes. I like Role Playing Games when they provide either good rasons for the characters to do things (storyline) or provide a world with a lot of things to do in it (nethack).

	30-12-2003 02:52									#3
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Graphics are important, but it depends on what kind of game you want to play. Most games need good graphics, but not always.

I liked the civ2 graphics over all the later civgraphics (ctp/civ3 etc) because it looked cooler, and I had a better view of my empire in civ2 (civ1 graphics however are too primitive!).


Though many people say graphics are not important and that gameplay rules; well I say that graphics add to the gameplay in many cases.

I can't really explain what makes a game "good" because I like most genres (except the sims and that kind of utter nonsense)

	30-12-2003 03:24									#4
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What's a "good" game? Turn that question around and ask yourself "What's a 'good' movie?"

Is "Die Hard" a good movie? Sure, one of the best action flicks ever made. How about "Sense and Sensibility"? Very little in common with "Die Hard" but a fine light drama. "Ghostbusters"?

So why can't "Quake", "Space Invaders", "Civilization", "Starcraft", "The Sims" and "Zork" all be good games?

For me, it's entirely about mood. Some days "Capitalism" feels like a fun business sim; other days like an exercise in accounting. Some days "Civilization" feels dynamic and epic empire management, others like tedious bureaucratic micromanagement. Sometimes I fire up Unreal Tournament and blow the crap out of things. Sometimes I want an engrossing story, though these days, the best bet for those kinds of games seems to come from the amateur IF community.

Games are sort of like a vacation: How "good" they are depends on how different they are from what you're doing or have done.

	30-12-2003 03:40									#5
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Storyline is important. Almost all games I play have a storyline; either it's an adventure game that's all about story, or the game forms a story as it goes along (eg Civ), or there are at least cutscenes in between blowing stuff up to explain _why_ you're attempting to blow your targets up.

I think immersion and gameplay are really the main two elements. The game must first be able to draw you in through nice graphics; I don't mean what res it is or how many colors, just how the art looks. That really makes or breaks the game environment. Once the graphics give the game a good feel, there must be good gameplay to keep you interested and keep the fun factor up.

I think you really only need those three elements for a good game. In some cases you don't even need storyline. I wouldn't put replayability on the list, though it's true replayable games like Civ are what I keep returning to. The adventure games I discard after playing through a few times are still very fun those first few times, and are still good games IMO.

	30-12-2003 05:01									#6
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But there are games that don't have the best graphics, story, engine, are full of bugs and exploits but are still great. Examples : Baldur's Gate 2, SMAC, MoO2...

Why is this so? These games have CHARACTER. You actually care what happens to the Psilon, or Edwin, or the Hive.

-Jam

	30-12-2003 05:08									#7
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IMVHO if you care what happens it is a worthwhile game

	30-12-2003 05:35									#8
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No reason to be so VH with your O, its a valid point. If the game makes you actually give a damn if you die, or if you run our of grapefruit, or time, or beat the boss... then its a great game. If a game can make you actually emotional about it, even if its just mildly elated, or pretty darn pissed, then it is reaching the level of ART, and then it's a great game. If you reach the end and think "oh was it" then it sure isn't a great game. If you die, and just press "continue" then its not a great game. A great game makes you turn off your computer and sulk for 10 minutes when you die, plotting your revenge, which you later triumphantly achieve after 154 reloads, and feel like a real hero.

-Jam

	30-12-2003 05:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski No reason to be so VH with your O, its a valid point. If the game makes you actually give a damn if you die, or if you run our of grapefruit, or time, or beat the boss... then its a great game. If a game can make you actually emotional about it, even if its just mildly elated, or pretty darn pissed, then it is reaching the level of ART, and then it's a great game. If you reach the end and think "oh was it" then it sure isn't a great game. If you die, and just press "continue" then its not a great game. A great game makes you turn off your computer and sulk for 10 minutes when you die, plotting your revenge, which you later triumphantly achieve after 154 reloads, and feel like a real hero. -Jam

Yep.
Games that work have an emotional attachment to them.
They also have a sense of progression to them.
You can see yourself improving and this improvement is rewarded within the game.

	30-12-2003 08:25									#10
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My favorite games have made me emotional. I guess good games are ones that make you emotional (in a good way).

MoO3 made me emotional too.. in a bad way. :|

	30-12-2003 11:10									#11
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A game is good if I don't delete it after finishing it.
A game is great if it involves me emotionally.

	30-12-2003 12:29									#12
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To me, Die Hard is an entertaining movie, but not a good movie. The actions are nice, sure, but the story is corny, some of the things are just unbelievable, and why the heck did Willis go around without a pair of shoes the whole time?

Now, back to games. Clearly, it depends on the genre. You don't really expect any story or character in a FPS, but they are paramount in an RPG.

quote: Originally posted by Jamski You actually care what happens to the Psilon, or Edwin, or the Hive.

Not me

	30-12-2003 14:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Gameplay matters most, but it's the 'new' things provided by gameplay that matter. Your friend probably wanted something 'new' or netter than what existed. I don't know the game, so I can't talk about gameplay, but most games are not innovative as far as gameplay...

GGXX:R is best thing since sliced bread for fighting game.

There's zillions of modes and features that ensures game is balanced (well it isnt but it tries REAL hard and comparing to other games it is damn near balanced)

Its not just combo crazy chaotic like any other 2D fighters. Theres anti strategies and indepth play for both offensive and defensive play (like Roman canceling, false Rcing, bursting... etc dont wanna go too specific.. but trust me theres **** load).

Yet my friend cant seem to appreciate it. I know some games need to be observed carefully in order to appreciate the game design (esp if theyre complicated) but he didnt even give this game a chance.

	30-12-2003 16:57									#14
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quote: Its not just combo crazy chaotic like any other 2D fighters.

That's maybe why he doesn't like it. If he likes games of reflexes rather than of strategy, he may not like these changes?
And now a piece of gratuitous psychology about someone I don't know:
He would have to learn a bit about the strategies before being able ot appreciate the game, and, since he knows other fighting games, he expected this one to behave the same. It didn't behave as the norm, so it wasn't good.

	30-12-2003 17:02									#15
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A game is good if it neither bad nor average.

	30-12-2003 18:51									#16
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Or a 2D fighter

-Jam

	30-12-2003 21:44									#17
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I most like games that play out like movies...but those are mostly adventure games. I like a game if I'm having fun, no matter the graphics, sound, or small problems.

	30-12-2003 23:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike A game is good if it neither bad nor average.

By process of elimination, I declare this to be a good game?

	30-12-2003 23:48									#19
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Like TEF, I love 'cinematic' games- but I want to play the movie, not watch it. Max Payne 2 was ok in that regard, but by the end I was pretty tired of the constant interruptions.

I also like intuitive games. RON is a good example, it takes good elements from a lot of games and the designers were smart enough to leave out the bad ones. The game acts exactly as you'd expect it to.

Morrowind is still the best game ever (IMHO). It has a graphics system that still rivals many new productions. And the ammount of time spent developing a non-linear story line is amazing to me.

	31-12-2003 03:29									#20
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare That's maybe why he doesn't like it. If he likes games of reflexes rather than of strategy, he may not like these changes? And now a piece of gratuitous psychology about someone I don't know: He would have to learn a bit about the strategies before being able ot appreciate the game, and, since he knows other fighting games, he expected this one to behave the same. It didn't behave as the norm, so it wasn't good.

Nah it has combos, but game is designed so that game is against combos. In fact it takes much more skill to fid/do combos in a game designed agst combos.

All games require reflexes.(unless ur playing TBS infinite time)

Yeah I wish... but I already told him how game operates and how in depth it was before playing. And he himself flat out said game sucks because of 3 reasons given.

Whats even worse.... ya all know how good halo was for xbox. Well he's PC gamer and he couldnt wait to play the game. He installs it today and he didnt like the highest resolution the game could offer. He believes the PC version graphic is inferior to what xbox was... or at least he believes this game isnt the gme w/ graphics right now (he kept complainging "it kinda looks like half life") So he uninstalled it and wont play the game. WTF?

I wanted to decapitate him if he was gonna complain about how halo sucked cause it looked too "half lifeish" one more time........

	31-12-2003 05:06									#21
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quote: Morrowind is still the best game ever (IMHO). It has a graphics system that still rivals many new productions. And the ammount of time spent developing a non-linear story line is amazing to me.

If only you could actually interact with NPCs in this game. There's no talking to be done in it. Just yes/no/let me raise my diplomacy skills. As for non linear, well... you have gates to go through and very few different endings. I preferred Arcanum as far as role playing was concerned. Morrowind is beautiful, has a very good skills system, but your character is doomed to have no character. In fact I prefer Nethack to Morrowind as far as richness of the world is concerned...

quote: All games require reflexes.(unless ur playing TBS infinite time)

On computers, I mostly play single player TBS so my games require 0 reflex. When I play things like chess, I will use time limits only to avoid abuse from people who will let the game drag for 1 or 2 hours rather than acknowledge defeat. This rarely turns into a reflex game, unless you specifically play blitz (like when I know I can't win except by time so I'll play fast and silly).

	31-12-2003 06:57									#22
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quote: All games require reflexes.(unless ur playing TBS infinite time)

Rubbish. No games require relexes except computer action games, a very small subset of games in general. Oh, and that masterful card game of SNAP

-Jam

	31-12-2003 07:13									#23
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Fun = good game.

	31-12-2003 10:49									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Rubbish. No games require relexes except computer action games, a very small subset of games in general. Oh, and that masterful card game of SNAP -Jam

- Sports. (and all other games physical)
- Poker (good fast eyes to check up on everyone's faces?)
- Chess (if you play speed chess!)
- Monopoly with my brother (dodging flying objects when he is pissed)

	31-12-2003 11:59									#25
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Text-based games? What sort of reflexes would you need for them?

	31-12-2003 17:34									#26
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quote: - Sports. (and all other games physical) - Poker (good fast eyes to check up on everyone's faces?) - Chess (if you play speed chess!) - Monopoly with my brother (dodging flying objects when he is pissed)

Sports are not games
Poker you don't need reflexes for god's sake.
Chess (even speed) is a game of memory, not reflexes
Monopoly - LOL

-Jam

	31-12-2003 19:37									#27
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let me introduce two related words, that also relate to what has been said about caring about whats going, and different games depending on your mood.

Immersion, and willing suspension of disbelief.

Characters and story can lead to the above for many of us - for some of us graphics and sound are important elements in the above - for some details in gameplay are important - for some of us who lean grognard even realism in gameplay is.

	31-12-2003 19:40									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Rubbish. No games require relexes except computer action games, a very small subset of games in general. Oh, and that masterful card game of SNAP -Jam

1. Would you consider RTS to be action games?
2. Lots of Console games require reflexes, IIUC, and they make up quite a large portion of games played today in North America and Japan.
3. There are a number of card games that require reflexes, I think (cant remember any classics off the top of my head - POTM has a commercial one called "not guilty" - more than a few kids games like that)

	31-12-2003 20:28									#29
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A Good Game draws you in. Preferably through addictive gameplay and a great story. You don't have to feel like you are really there (after all, before recently, when did you think you were 'really' there), but the game must take hold of you. Gameplay is, of course, important. I think a great story is also a good way to do this.

That said my favorite games usually involve both:
Grand Theft Auto III (& Vice City)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Deus Ex I
Baldur's Gate II
No One Lives Forever II
Civ II (ok, doesn't really have that great of a story )

	01-01-2004 01:54									#30
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quote: 1. Would you consider RTS to be action games?

Yes.
But sports are games, too.

Immersion is indeed something that will help make a game good. This one is well found. Suspension of disbelief too, to a lower extent.