30-12-2003 06:21									#1
	Marketplaces versus Libraries Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Trip brought up an good point in chat that we need some Libraries.

While MP's will provide some increased happiness in cities that have a larger population they do not contribut to your income at all if you are at 100% Science on the slider. In fact, if you stay above 50% on the Science slider, then Libraries do more for you in terms of commerce throughput to science than would Marketplaces. The only real consideration about Marketplaces is if you drop beneath the 50% on the Science slider and need to bank gold for upgrades and emergencies along with the Happiness increase you get due to the bonus given on your luxuries.

So, can we maintain 100% science or at least 60% for a while? If so, then Libraries are a better choice as long as we don't grow any cities without a MP over size 6 (Temple assumed). Otherwise the lux slider and/or entertainers/specialists need to be employed.

	30-12-2003 07:35									#2
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What do Markets gain us in the next ~30 turns?

Extra gold? Not really. We will be running at or near 100% science for the next two techs following our completion of Invention. As BF said, the raw commerce output is helped more from Libraries as long as we're over 50% science (and equal at 50)%. Considering that we're doing Markets now and Libraries soon (~30 turns) that's a big waste. That should be the other way around while we're pumping up science now and turning it down later.

Letting us turn down the luxury slider? Nope. Karina, Mingapulco and Apolyton all would need Markets in order for us to turn down the lux slider (until we make peace and get rid of WW). Of those three cities, only Ming is doing a Market now. And Karina will be doing the FP for quite a while still. That means until Karina finishes its FP build (~15 turns until we can even START a Market) we're stuck with the lux slider until we make peace.

Libraries also produce culture, which we are seriously lacking in. They're also cheaper than Markets, allowing us to build Settlers sooner from cities we have Libraries built in instead of Markets.

Building Libraries before Markets give us much greater benefit than building them in opposite order.

	30-12-2003 09:53									#3
	Remove this text

First off, we don't know how long it will be before we get peace with GCA. It might take a while. I do hope it will be soon, but I'm not making anyplans until we know for sure.

As it currently stands, with this last save, IF we were, right now, run at 100% research, we would be at -104GPT. Trip was talking in chat about getting 35GPT from CFC, so lets assume that we get that, we would be at -69GPT.

Now, Theo is 960 beakers, Edu is 1056 beakers and GP is 1152, with everything else going up from there.

Now, at 100%, currently, we make 137 beakers per turn (BPT), so that would mean 8 turns each for Theo & Edu and 9 turns for GP.

We currently have 618 Gold, and can do 100% for 8 turns before we have to change the slider, bringing us close to Zero Treasury.

In about 13 to 15 turns, we will have the FP built, we will also have several new cities, other cities with Higher pops, 2 to 3 Granaries (for River cities) and 5 more Markets (6 total). These will allow us to have a better Research without too much GPT loss (because, realistically, we can;t do 100%). More Raw Trade and more GPT for the bank. After that, Librairies can be built much faster, as the FP will reduce the waste for a lot of those cities.

The thing is, if some (or all) of the MP builds are changed to Libs, they will be built too soon and not contribute anything to the research effort, because we will still have to maintain the minimal research until Invention is done (we have passed the point of diminishing, i.e. no, return). And then, we will still not be able to get 100% research and will have a higher deficit, because of increased maintainance costs with no additional Income.

Granted, the full effect has to be simulated, but the end result is that we need the cash flow now and it will help things out later, when we do get the Extra trade from all of the new things at once.

Our builds take time, but this is the best route to take, over the long haul. The combo of the FP, the higher pop cities, the New cities being built and the Various MPs and Libs will all allow us to have a healthy Research effort.

But lets not change things around, because we think this might fit the plan. I'll try to get my sim posted tomorrow, sometime after work, and people can play with different things. But my experiance says that this is the best overall way to go.

E_T

	30-12-2003 11:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by E_T First off, we don't know how long it will be before we get peace with GCA. It might take a while. I do hope it will be soon, but I'm not making anyplans until we know for sure.

Because of Karina at the very least this is not a factor in the Market vs. Library issue.

quote: As it currently stands, with this last save, IF we were, right now, run at 100% research, we would be at -104GPT. Trip was talking in chat about getting 35GPT from CFC, so lets assume that we get that, we would be at -69GPT. Now, Theo is 960 beakers, Edu is 1056 beakers and GP is 1152, with everything else going up from there. Now, at 100%, currently, we make 137 beakers per turn (BPT), so that would mean 8 turns each for Theo & Edu and 9 turns for GP. We currently have 618 Gold, and can do 100% for 8 turns before we have to change the slider, bringing us close to Zero Treasury.

You assume we won't be making any money between now and when we finish Invention to start another tech. At our current GPT, we will end up with another ~400+ gold before we start researching for real. Also, CFC will be gaining more gold during that time as well, which increases further what we will have available.

And not only that, but with Libraries in place the # of turns we have to run at 100% research is reduced. So instead of the final couple turns where we're losing 137 GPT we can reduce research and gain a bunch of gold back. Or, we can tone down research to ~70% and get it done in the same amount of time as doing 100% with no Libraries, but we'll also be losing less GPT.

quote: In about 13 to 15 turns, we will have the FP built, we will also have several new cities, other cities with Higher pops, 2 to 3 Granaries (for River cities) and 5 more Markets (6 total). These will allow us to have a better Research without too much GPT loss (because, realistically, we can;t do 100%). More Raw Trade and more GPT for the bank. After that, Librairies can be built much faster, as the FP will reduce the waste for a lot of those cities.

Or we can do Libraries first and Markets later. FP, growth, Granaries, etc. help whether we build Libraries or Markets now...

quote: The thing is, if some (or all) of the MP builds are changed to Libs, they will be built too soon and not contribute anything to the research effort, because we will still have to maintain the minimal research until Invention is done (we have passed the point of diminishing, i.e. no, return). And then, we will still not be able to get 100% research and will have a higher deficit, because of increased maintainance costs with no additional Income.

Libraries will be generating culture now before we start researching for real. Once we begin researching for real (70+%, not just with 100%) Markets won't be contributing nearly as much as Libraries would, if anything at all (at 100%, which we are capable of doing). Isn't there a problem with that?

No additional income? Do you forget how Libraries work? Markets increase the tax income of cities just as Libraries increase the research income of cities. At 60 or 70 or 80 or 90 or 100% research on the slider Libraries give a greater % boost to income than Markets. The opposite would be true if we were running below 50% science.

Also, as I've said before, there is also the non-GPT affecting qualities of Libraries over Markets: generate 3 culture per turn and are 20 shields cheaper, allowing cities to begin building Settlers sooner, speeding up the REX.

I await your sim, and do not make your results biased. It needs to be a fair representation which account for the fact that: 1) we will have 400+ gold coming in between now and when we finish Invention, 2) CFC will be able to build up cash between now and then as well to help us out, 3) Research can either be slowed down or finished quicker than without Libraries: that means if we finish a tech in 6 turns instead of 8 we can be banking our FULL income for those extra 2 turns while having the tech early.

	30-12-2003 13:21									#5
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There is more to this discussion:

Libraries also give you the possibility to build Universities (if you have the appropriate tech).
Marketplaces also give you the possibility to build Banks (if you have the appropriate tech).

Please include not only the present, but also the future in the decisions!

edit: I just read the Tech research thread. From this, it seems obvious (though not easy to pull off): CFC should only build Marketplaces and get us GPT. We should do Libraries and research at 100%. This way, we make use of the fact that, combined, we'll have two sliders to work with.

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 30-12-2003 at 13:27

	30-12-2003 19:41									#6
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What BFM said.

-Arrian

	30-12-2003 22:45									#7
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Currently we are getting 190-195 com from cities (depending on tax rate, with a 0 luxury slider).

55 are lost to corruption
15 go to maintenance
89 go to unit costs

At 20% science we are +9gpt. 30% is -6gpt.

We have 618 in the bank. Higher science rates result in the following deficits and beakers per turn:
40% -18gpt with 52bpt
50% -40gpt with 73bpt
60% -50gpt with 83bpt
70% -62gpt with 94bpt
80% -77gpt with 109bpt
90% -91gpt with 122bpt
100% -104gpt with 135bpt

Growth and the FP being completed in 13 to 15 turns will help that.

Theology is 1056 beakers.

	30-12-2003 22:51									#8
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E_T's plan calls for MPs now and Libs during and right after expansion (during in some cities to allow for pop to recharge).

Trip's idea calls for Libs now and MPs after expansion (some during too, but they are more expensive so many may come after).

We will have both so that we may build universities and banks when the time comes.

	30-12-2003 23:17									#9
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Here's an idea. cities that can produce BOTH before we start reseach should go MP-LIB. Others should go LIB. That way we get the MP's that can help some with income, but will also have the all important libaries(and their culture) to help us research.

One question: I suspect that a vast amount of commerce comes from 3/4 cities. What percentage of our total output comes from these"core cities". We can then assume a huge boast by simply making sure that these have libaries and then Universities when they become available. What happens in the other cities will have at best a moderate effect.

Also from a military standpoint, I would really like to see libaries so that we have a greater cultural bpundary and thus extra vision for barbarians and enemies.

Aggie

	30-12-2003 23:30									#10
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libraries

	31-12-2003 00:41									#11
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As I am unable to create an in-game sim, I will do my best to do an out-of-game one with the information available now.

Scenario Setup

Assume that we will have 750 gold of our own and CFC will provide us more later (in addition to an extra 100 of their own stored up, already added to our treasury). However, they do not yet know how much GPT they will be generating under Republic, so we cannot count on a specific amount per turn until we know that. They will be providing us with lump sums anyways, not a GPT deal. The amount of gold we have available isn't really all that relevent for this scenario anyways (all results land within the 750 gold max and all my results show how much gold we spend/save, rather than how much we would have left.

Assume that we have either 4 Libraries or 4 Markets in effect (depending on the scenario) during this time, in Mingapulco, HoD, BFC and Incensity. Before any Markets or Libraries, BFC generates 16 GPT, Mingapulco at 12, Incensity at 10 and HoD at 9. These cities compose 35% of our total income (after corruption, of course).

Assume before the influence of Libraries or Markets that at 0% science we generate 36 GPT. At 100% science we generate -104 GPT and 135 beakers per turn. At 70% we are at -62 GPT and 94 beakers per turn. At 50% we are at -40 GPT and 73 beakers per turn.

Assume we are researching a 1056 beaker tech (Education).

Standard Scenario

Thus at 100% science we end up with a total of -104 GPT. At 135 beakers per turn we finish the 1056 beaker tech in 8 turns, but the eigth turn we only need 24 beakers so we can turn down research the last turn to 20% (gaining us 11 gold). The total cost of this will be ~717 gold.

Market Scenario

100% Science:

At 100% if we have 4 Markets and 0 Libraries, then they will add a total of 0 GPT to our income due to the fact that no tax income is being generated which is modified by the Market bonus.

This scenario’s results are the same as if we had no improvements at all (Education in 8 turns, total cost of 717 gold).

70% Science:

At 70% we will have 30% tax income which is 41GPT. Thus 35% of this value is increased by 50%, giving us an extra 7 per turn. However, at 94 BPT it will now take us 11 turns to get to Education. Over the course of those 11 turns we spend ~609 gold and save 88 gold (from the Markets), losing a total of ~521 gold (assuming 20% science on the final turn) over the course of the research.

50% Science:

50% tax income is 67 GPT. Modified in the same was as before over 15 turns we spend ~560 gold from our tank and make back 180 gold from the Markets for a total loss of 380 gold over that span.

Library Scenario

100% Science:

With 4 Libraries we gain the max benefit. Those cities’ share of 135 beakers is 47 per turn. Library increases that by 23 per turn. Thus with an expenditure of 158 BPT (150 extra overall) we finish Education in 7 turns where we spend 696 gold, but gain back 35 the following turn for a total cost of 661 gold.

70% Science:

16 extra beakers per turn for a total of 152 extra beakers. This gives us 10 turns. -589 gold over 10 turns and -553 gold over 11 turns (comparing with if we have Markets).

50% Science:

12 extra beakers per turn. That ends up giving 13 (12.4) turns again with 150 beakers saved. -440 gold spent over that span and 368 gold lost over 15 turns (comparing with the Market scenario).

Conclusion

As you can see, as long as we run at at least 50% science the gold spent/saved favors having Libraries built now. We can finish the techs faster and turn down science to gain back gold no matter what level of science we choose to run at. The numbers are much closer the closer we get to 50%, but we still end up with an overall advantage. Since Libraries are cheaper and give more culture, even if they gave the same GPT results, that wins them the tiebreaker.

Last edited by Trip on 31-12-2003 at 00:47

	31-12-2003 00:52									#12
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In the difference between Libraries and Markets a difference can be in the final turn (some times we can turn down to 20% science, which favors Markets the final turn, sometimes not, but that's hard to predict) like in the 70% scenario (where having Markets appears to have a slight advantage).

Obviously, all of this will need to be verified with an actual in-game sim. I can crunch numbers, but I can't account for the hidden intricacies of the Civ 3 economic engine. I would imagine the results would be similar though.

	31-12-2003 01:56									#13
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We can only do 50% science for about 12 turns, plus growth, plus whatever CFC gives us. After that we will be below 50% science for some time.

Also, I think we'd be insane to use all cash for research while allowing CFC to wait to give us gold. That would be inviting disaster.

	31-12-2003 02:04									#14
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We can only do 50% science for about 12 turns, plus growth, plus whatever CFC gives us. After that we will be below 50% science for some time.

Yes, but growth and especially CFC's assistance are a pivotal part of our ability to maintain a fast tech pace, which is why the gold situation will be better than what this sim shows (or what any sim can show, since we don't know how much impact CFC wil have yet).

quote: Also, I think we'd be insane to use all cash for research while allowing CFC to wait to give us gold. That would be inviting disaster.

Which is why we have to get a deal set up with them beforehand, and require them to give us gold in, say, at least 5 turn intervals beginning with once we start Education. We're obviously not going to wait until we're almost done to get the gold from them, or else, yes that would be inviting disaster.

	31-12-2003 03:07									#15
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Trip, we need to also be concerned about the impact of switching markets for libraries will have on building the other one during our REX phase (should that be the plan). Impacts of one plan or the other on our growth should be looked at as well. That's going to take more work, though, I'd assume. (well, unless you already did that part, but just didn't report it).

	31-12-2003 04:05									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Trip, we need to also be concerned about the impact of switching markets for libraries will have on building the other one during our REX phase (should that be the plan). Impacts of one plan or the other on our growth should be looked at as well. That's going to take more work, though, I'd assume. (well, unless you already did that part, but just didn't report it).

Unfortunately, it's impossible for me to get tangible numbers regarding the real effects of that. Libraries will get done at different times in different cities, then we build Settlers next (?), then units to replenish pop, then more Settlers, then a Market, then more Settlers, etc. Unfortunately, I cannot determine an exact order of what we'd be doing taking into account SPT values, food balance, etc. without access to Civ 3 (and that would be up to E_T anyways ).

I can make generalized but accurate predictions of how building Libraries first will affect us though.

Currently, every city working on a Library/Market now will be size 6 by the time it finishes its build (excluding Incensity, but I'm not sure all of what E_T has planned for that city, so I will exclude it). Each will also be able to start/continue growing after that point (removing some hills from BFC, Hispanica, etc. to) to increase the food balance. Due to that growth when the Libraries are finished, the first Settlers from them will probably finish about the time when those cities are about to grow to size 7 (HoD, Ming, BFC and probably Hispanica at least) based upon the size 7 and the food balance.

This allows us to get those Settlers out sooner (since, for example, BFC and Hispanica wouldn't be growing until they finished their Market builds anyways) without really messing up the future scheduling.

Now then, further down the road, Markets are indeed more expensive. We will probably want to get these cities down to size 4 or so when we start the Markets, and they will be about ready to go back to size 7 by the time they finish their next Settlers afterwards depending on how fast they're growing. This puts us in a very similar position where we would be after finishing the first Libraries. Food balance is good, expensive builds recently finished, cities about to grow to 7 when the Settlers are done.

Obviously I may not be entirely correct about the timing of all that, but I do know that the sooner Hispanica and BFC finish their Library/Market builds the sooner they can start growing again (they're not growing now). Ming and HoD are affected less, but working irrigated tiles means that HoD will be growing to size 7 pretty quick, and its SPT isn't all that high. So if we finish a Library now instead of a Market, that allows us to contine growing at 3+ FPT without having that extra 4 turns to build a Market affecting things and forcing us to slow growth so that we're not stuck at a full box at size 6.

	01-01-2004 06:22									#17
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Advise form a lurker. ET suggested me to give some comments.

When you spend 100% on science, you have to make sure you are going to build an get a bigger army so your science rate drops. Building libaries is an excellent idea then. Market places, are, as has already been said, for the times that your rate drops. Though they may be less effective at a science rate above 50%, as soon as the rate is well under 100% (I mean 60%, 70% or 80%), they do add some bonus commerce.

So for now I advise to build libraries.

Aidun

Last edited by Aidun on 01-01-2004 at 06:28

	01-01-2004 07:07									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I am concerned that we may only get about 10 turns intensive use out of Libraries, and then wish that we had built MPs.

	01-01-2004 07:11									#19
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1. Mkts produce gpt while Libs produce bpt.

2. Mkts produce additional happy faces while Libs produce culture.

3. Mkts cost 100 shields while Libs cost 80 shields

Since we plan on high science rate for next techs, point 1 favors Libs.

Since we will be rexing like bunnies, the happy faces will not be highly utilized and point 2 favors Libs.

Point 3 is case specific especially since we will be rexing like bunnies and radically managing the slider.

A Lib produced before we finnish the slow tech invention will cost gold maintenance and produce no beakers until the slow tech is fully researched. And after that will produce net beakers or research at lower opportunity cost. (see trip's analysis) Hence a Library that completes very early might cost more gold in maintenance during the slow tech than can be recouped on the first fast tech.

A Mkt produced before we finnish the slow tech invention will produce net gpt for any city now producing atleast 4 trade (as gold) until the tech is fully researched. After that it will increase the research opportunity cost. (see trip's analysis). Hence a Mkt that completes very early might produce more gold during the slow reaserch than it costs during the first fast tech.

Settler production: If a Lib or Mkt finnishes early, the settler that follows could drag down the pop so that there is too long of a pop recovery. Doing the Mkt first in this scenario is attractive.

Pop Stagnation: If a Mkt or Lib finnishes late, especially in cities that need aqueducts, we could stagnate at size six. Build choice here should be left to the MoI.

IMHO, I believe we should allow the earliest Mkts to complete and switch the rest to Libs. This tends to maximize those instances where Mkts can help the most and maximize the Libs where they help the most.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	01-01-2004 10:19									#20
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Very good post, roadcage.

To any who are interested, I am just about finished a sim for our current situation. I should be finished Jan 1, late afternoon EST (maybe earlier). I will post it here for those who want to tear through it.

There will be some problems inherent in any attempt to sim this out. First and foremost, keep in mind that settlers will be being built with wild abandon and little regard for other factors in the real game over the next 30 or so turns. If you do not do this, and just sit back and research on libraries with full pop, you will not be anywhere close to reality.

Also, I am not sure that even I understand what E_T plans to pull from where and when for this late REX. Consult the city placement for a guide, then place closest to Karina, Apolyton and then the new palace as guidelines to make things more accurate (I would assume).

Finally, CFC just passed the turn on. With any luck it will take more than another day for it to come back to us. If the turn does get back to us tomorrow, I have no intention of it being played prior to us examining this question of Libs or MPs as thouroughly as we need to. There is no reason to rush a turn when we are allowed 24 hours, simply because the turn is here.

We are at a cross roads, ladies and gentlemen. The time invested in war has cost us, heavily. We have no more room for a misstep. We need facts, and a much better understanding of the up sides and down sides to one path or the other than we have now.

We have clawed our way to the point where victory is attainable, but defeat must be held at bay with increasing vigilance. Let us take our time, examine the alternatives, and do what we need to do to get this game won.

	01-01-2004 19:50									#21
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I'm working on my own sim as we speak. Between, work, turnchats, falling asleep at my computer, general RL, trying to make ends meet and a general feeling of starting to burn out, I've been working on this.

To answer a few questions, I'll likely be keeping the cities sizes down before the Palace is moved (and the last of the cities settled). At that point, I'll be working on getting our pops up in the cities. To this point, I'm (currently) focusing on Granaries in the cities that are on Rivers, because they don;t need Aquaducts.

As for the other cities, like BFC, Hisp & Ming, just to name a few, we will have both Markets AND Libs in them. Further more, Incensity, Hisp and HoD all need Harbors. And lastly, Incensity, Banana, BFC will also need Courthouses before the palace is moved. So, there is a lot of things to squeeze in over a short time frame and things have to be prioritized as to what and where and when.

Trip's plan of converting whole hog to Libaries isn't the answer, but as RC had noted, a more balance approch might be and I'll try to look into it a bit more.

Now, and for the next 30 or so turns, while we are REXing like mad, the most important thing IS the Food balance. Some of these builds are longer term ones, but most of them are timed to have those builds finish and then have a settler built, BEFORE that city gets to a full (and stagnant) food box. The better I can time a settler that would come from a city, to where it would grow as soon as possible (ideally, the next turn after the settler is built), the better I can get them back up to fuller production. This has been my main goal from the start. This is as efficient as I can make it and still keep up our Trade and sheild balances.

So, Let me get back to this sim, and I hope I can have it posted by this afternoon. And I hope to have some preliminary results by this evening, before I have to go and try to fix my sisters Broken computer (an all night affair, no doubt).

MoI E_T

	01-01-2004 23:26									#22
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This is all looking very good. I especially like roadcage's analysis of the situation (rather similar to the one I laid out in chat, too bad I didn't copy it into the forum).

I look forward to both notyoueither's and E_T's sim results.

My take on the issue has been that I think while marketplaces are generally superior to libraries for a whole host of reasons, the particulars of our situation, especially our high research rate in the near future, make libraries much more attractive (for the reasons Trip and then roadcage have laid out above). My principle worry about libraries, as I discussed with Trip, is that building them first may screw with our REX pattern. That's what I want the people doing sims to check out.

Alright, I gotta get back to New Year's stuff, so I'll check back in later.

Sounds like we're making progress.

I agree with nye about holding the turn until we have a decision, btw.

	02-01-2004 04:21									#23
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Here is our current situation.

WF is set as it was when I saved and sent the turn on. Some workers have just started jobs that they are in fact partially finished in the actual game.

Something has always been off with corruption since the game started. This sim has us +27gpt instead of +24. This may also effect build times very marginally for larger builds.

Ground Rules:
- Lots of settlers, or your test is worthless. Expansion is priority 1 and is unlikely to be changed.
- The horse need to be upgraded to knights as gold becomes available (at least 3 of them). 500 in the bank is the cushion for increased science spending later. It is unclear what we will receive from CFC and when we will receive that. I am not sure how to factor that in.
- I cannot induce WW with the editor. Leave the lux slider at 10% (wasting gold) as a conservative hedge. This will also partially offset the extra commerce from lower corruption in sims.

Here is a link to the city placement plan.

	02-01-2004 07:04									#24
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My starting Sim is posted in the MoI thread, here. Only one small problem (and I hope Alexman can look at it), but it's 2 points of corruption off from what it should be, according to our save. So, take that into account when you do things with it, that it's not entirely exact.

MoI E_T

	02-01-2004 21:31									#25
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In BFC, we are currently building a Marketplace, which will be done on turn 148 (320AD). We can have a Library built in that city, by turn 156 (400AD). This Library would still be finished AT THE SAME TIME as we would be starting research on our next Item AND we would be changing the slider to around 50% (at that time).

That is 8 turns of Market enhanced Income at 90% before the additional Maintainance requirement of the Library.

that would be:
Market first, then Lib
14 (GPT from city now) + 7 (Market Enhancement) - 3 (Maintainace cost for Barracks, Temple & Market) = 18 NET GPT from city. Times 8 turns while still in 90% tax - 144 total.

Lib first, then Market - Lib built next turn, 10 turns to Market
14 (GPT from city now) - 3 (Maintainace cost for Barracks, Temple & Library) = 11 NET GPT from city. Times 10 turns while still in 90% tax (no Benifit for the research) - 111 total.

144 - 111 = 33 Gold from this city alone while we are still in 90% tax mode

This one is a no brainer for now.

[EDIT] The general Plan for BFC, is to leave it at the pop that it currently is, for several reasons.
1) 10 SPT production continuously, with a Barracks for quick Vet Production.
2) the Gold gives us a better Trade, especially while a lot of the other cities are going to be bouncing around with settler builds
3) slow growth potenial to rebound from a settler built.

It will have a settler pulled from it, right before the Palace is moved. But that is still aways off and not before both of the 2 builds are completed.
[/edit]

MoI E_T

Last edited by E_T on 03-01-2004 at 02:54

	02-01-2004 23:10									#26
	Incensity Increase the size of your Attachments

This is my plan for this city at this point in time:

build Q: Harbor - Library - Galley - Courthouse - Settler (or Galley, depending on the timeing)

Change over to Harbor, it gets finished in turn 151 (350AD). On turn 152, we add 1 worker while building the Library. This gets us a little bit more trade before the Lib is built (3 more TPT) and the Library is built 5 turns after we start on the next tech (turn 161, 450AD).

Then we do a slow build of a Galley (Vet now), allowing the city to get up to size 6(and increased overall trade from coast). This is finished on turn 170 (540AD). Then the courthouse at it's fastest production speed, finishing on turn 180 (630AD). After then, most likely a settler, because it will need to get back down in Pop for the Palace Move. (anticipated around that time).

This gets us a better low corruption trade base, plus the addition of the Library to enhance it. Having the Library first would have it at a lower trade, because I would NOT be able to increase that cities Pop until the Harbor is built.

MoI E_T

	03-01-2004 02:20									#27
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Marketplaces are more versatile than Libraries, because you can run a Gold deficit to do research but not vice versa (in other words, Gold is more fundamental than Beakers). Libraries can sit around and do nothing but generate Culture, while Marketplaces will always have some economic impact (however small).

In general, unless you're Scientific or are playing for a Culture victory, Marketplaces are better than Libraries for economic growth. This is even more true against human players, since then the value of research is worth far less than against the AI due to the "make a sale at all costs" mentality.


Dominae

	03-01-2004 02:51									#28
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I also agree with you somewhat, Dom, as I had orignally had the Markets first. BUT, that was also assuming that we wouldn't be getting that gold from CFC, so thereby, the priorities change to fit the curcumstances. Part of that is timing for Settler builds, timing of completions, etc.

All taken into account, a couple of changes now from Markets will be better in the long run.

But we will still have markets being built....

MoI E_T

	03-01-2004 05:38									#29
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E_T, I really like your city by city analysis. Can you get the critical cities done soonest? Those would be BFC (done) Mingapulco, and Heart of Darkness.

	03-01-2004 05:49									#30
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Ming is a timed build, because of it having a settler built very soon. Same with HoD.

But, I'm working on it, but I can mainly say that the Markets first in those 2 cities is the best way to go.

MoI E_T