30-12-2003 21:42									#1
	Firaxis: Beta Patch Info Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Final Version of the Patch Release Date: Q2, 2004

I'm trying to release an updated EXE with 'Reduce Corruption' flagged buildings having their own cityranking (& SPHQ fix) and MP Random fixed by the 10th of January. A separate English only installer will be provided as well as a method for easily switching between 1.00 and the latest BETA Patch version.


Currently Targeted Items:
Planting Forests not returning shields, AI Pathfinding War Declarations w/ Invisible Units, infinite bombard, Anarchy Limited to 8 turns (weighting the roll for 3-5 turns), Religious requiring only 1 End Turn for gov't switch, Stealth Attack hitpoints listed & canceling possible, Tile Info displaying Terrain Defensive Bonus & ManMade Defensive Bonuses, Bombard Collateral Damage, load popup showing remaining movement points, worker gangs, conquest updates, civilopedia updates

Editor: setting max length of anarchy, setting combat rolls, enslaving to same unit, Debug Command for in-game reloading of Civilopedia/Scripts/Labels.txt, missing assets allowing continue into game, government-specific units, obsolete flag fixes, toggling palace popup, allowing civs existence without cities

Art: I am not going to be able to get an artist assigned. If any of the creators are interested in submitting City View artwork for the new Epic Game Wonders or packaging a Conquests City View Artwork, please help! That goes for these assets too: 2/3/4/5 unit Worker Gangs (full anim set)

MP: PBEM Reveal Map/Cheat, MP Specific Map Generation for more competitive maps (including tiny/small maps w/8 players), MPTournament Update, Aircraft Bombardment Messages displaying, Balance Adjustments (??? necessary - Enkidu 15??)

Translations: Full localizations for all of the Holiday Beta Patch text and as much of the new text as possible.


Thanks for your patience!!

	30-12-2003 21:54									#2
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This looks real good, Jesse. (And what are Worker Gangs? A way to give multiple workers the same command?)

	30-12-2003 21:59									#3
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Looks great, with one possible exception:

quote: Balance Adjustments (??? necessary - Enkidu 15??)

It may be that such an adjustment (and/or other adjustments, *coughStatueofZeuscough*) are necessary, but why not iron out the actual bugs first, and do balance a bit later, once people have some time to play the game (when it's working the way it's intended to work)?

-Arrian

	30-12-2003 22:24									#4
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Warpstorm: Worker Gangs will allow you to combine workers into teams that perform worker actions at the combined worker speed. This is intended as a late-game I'm tired of managing 80 workers solution.

Good Point Arrian - I was hoping that by Feb the MP community would have agreed (hehe) on some adjustments.

	30-12-2003 22:27									#5
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Great idea with the worker gangs That sure will help for the late game!

As for a concensus on balance by Feb, maybe. Perhaps an official thread asking about balance issues would assist?

-Arrian

	30-12-2003 22:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by JesseSmith Warpstorm: Worker Gangs will allow you to combine workers into teams that perform worker actions at the combined worker speed. This is intended as a late-game I'm tired of managing 80 workers solution.

That's great , as long as you can disband these gangs into single workers again (i.e. not like armies), because with government switches and the discovery of Replaceable Parts the efficiency of Workers changes.

	30-12-2003 22:27									#7
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Thank you Jesse.

	30-12-2003 22:37									#8
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That's the plan! I forgot to mention a couple of other items for the editor, Leader toggles On/Off, Leader Effect Options (ie: rush wonders, rush swonders, create armies - you decide!)

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph can disband these gangs into single workers again

	30-12-2003 22:47									#9
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quote: Originally posted by JesseSmith That's the plan! I forgot to mention a couple of other items for the editor, Leader toggles On/Off, Leader Effect Options (ie: rush wonders, rush swonders, create armies - you decide!)

That's fantastic Probably good for MP balance - shut off Great Wonder rushing altogether. Have MGLs & SGLs capable of improvement/small wonder rushing.

-Arrian

	30-12-2003 23:11									#10
	Re: Firaxis: Beta Patch Info Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by JesseSmith I'm trying to release an updated EXE with 'Reduce Corruption' flagged buildings having their own cityranking (& SPHQ fix) and MP Random fixed by the 10th of January.

January 10th!! Happy Birthday to me!!

quote: Currently Targeted Items: AI Pathfinding War Declarations w/ Invisible Units

Hoozah!!

	30-12-2003 23:15									#11
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So, Jesse, what are you thinking off for the MP Tournament biq?

Personally, my observations within the MP community are that Sumeria and/or the Statue of Zeus are not particularly unbalanced. In MP games anyway.

CS

	30-12-2003 23:15									#12
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Is it xmas again? Wow more good new from Mr. Smith, thanks yet again for keeping us updated.

I think the civpedia being updated is very usual. I feel it needs to reflect accurately how things work.

	30-12-2003 23:57									#13
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quote: Tile Info displaying Terrain Defensive Bonus & ManMade Defensive Bonuses

Awesome!

On all the editor-settable features, kudos!!!
Unless it's hardcoded for a special reason, everything possible should be moddable, IMO.


Lastly, you guys at Firaxis really seem to be embracing the whole community-feedback/interaction thing in a bigger/deeper way. Thanks a million! (No QA dept can catch as much as a big community of players.)

	31-12-2003 00:05									#14
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Thank you for the continuing updates (both information and actual releases!).

Catt

	31-12-2003 00:08									#15
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Thats a good start CS! I'm hoping the community will provide the rest (if any)!!

quote: Originally posted by CanuckSoldier So, Jesse, what are you thinking off for the MP Tournament biq? Personally, my observations within the MP community are that Sumeria and/or the Statue of Zeus are not particularly unbalanced. In MP games anyway. CS

	31-12-2003 00:11									#16
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quote: MP Specific Map Generation for more competitive maps (including tiny/small maps w/8 players)

No more getting stuck on islands

Thanks for your hard work

	31-12-2003 00:12									#17
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These sound great, Jesse! Collateral damage for bombard -- woo hoo!

	31-12-2003 00:31									#18
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WOW, thanks for the ongoing efforts, as well as the excellent communication.

Not to be greedy, but can I point out one thing ( ):

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	31-12-2003 00:40									#19
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quote: Stealth Attack hitpoints listed & canceling possible

IMO cancelling shouldn't be possible - otherwise a "Stealth Attack" unit can also simply spy on a city.

	31-12-2003 02:22									#20
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quote: Art: I am not going to be able to get an artist assigned. If any of the creators are interested in submitting City View artwork for the new Epic Game Wonders or packaging a Conquests City View Artwork, please help! That goes for these assets too: 2/3/4/5 unit Worker Gangs (full anim set)

SN00PY!!! WARPSTORM!!! GENGHISFARB!!! COME ON!!!

	31-12-2003 02:28									#21
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The Statue of Zeus is not particularly dangerous in the ladder MP community - very useful but by no means damning. Remember that most MP is played sub-Emperor difficulty, so tech moves fairly fast.

(This isn't to say it's not a great asset, just that it isn't devastating.)

Sumeria, on the other hand, definitely needs that 15-shield Enkidu fix. I've seen some ICS/Feudalism/Sumeria manuevers to make your head spin....

Worker gangs will be very, very popular in the MP world where time is of the essence, if they do what I'm assuming they do.

The MP community will be VERY happy to see tiny/small maps allowing 8 players again, and aircraft bombardment messages will be nice - also, will this include when SAMS shoot down opposing units? No message displayed currently.

In service to the fiery axis.

	31-12-2003 02:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Jesse Smith (Tavis) at CivFanatics FYI, the full patch final release won't occur until June. (Q2, '04) Monthly updates will be posted with the latest additions. Code lockdown will occur early May with just bug fixing from then on. Once I smooth out the installation & setup easy version switching I hope that everyone uses the Beta monthly updates. June is pretty far away!

I'll be the bastard in this otherwise nice and informative thread...

Doesn't the long time needed to get the "final" patch (June 04) only shows that Conquests wasn't a finished product and was released too early?

Flame on.

	31-12-2003 02:44									#23
	Got spare money?

Congratulations on winning the "Completely Unproductive and Otherwise Trollish and Useless Comment in a Highly Productive and Positive Thread" award, Alex.

::clap clap clap clap clap::

Let's give a big hand to the hero.

Now if we could get back to something a bit more pertinent...

These worker gangs - are they going to be working in the same mechanic as armies (load but not unload) and so on for their (assumedly) faster working, or is there something completely new at work with these animals?

	31-12-2003 02:47									#24
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What about few bugs in scenarios?

Like, for example, in Age of Discovery were Javlin Throwers and Missionaries have no AI flags set?

	31-12-2003 02:54									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Alex SN00PY!!! WARPSTORM!!! GENGHISFARB!!! COME ON!!!

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHHAHAA HAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHA!

	31-12-2003 02:56									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Congratulations on winning the "Completely Unproductive and Otherwise Trollish and Useless Comment in a Highly Productive and Positive Thread" award, Alex.

Thanks, I'm doing my best. But it was just something that crossed my mind when I read Jesse's post... I didn't want to interrupt your personal nirvana, grasshopper.

	31-12-2003 03:22									#27
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Speaking of balance adjustments, here are some no-brainers, IMHO:

• Remove Electronics requirement from Motorized transportation.
  
• Remove the better sinking odds for the Seafaring trait.
  
• Free tech with Philosophy should be chosen randomly among all available techs. Free techs from Theory of Evolution should be chosen randomly from all available techs (and chosen sequentially, so that it's still possible to get Atomic Theory then Electronics).
  
• Remove ability from Curragh to enter ocean.
  
• Increase the bombard defense of Coastal Fortress by about 400%.
  
• Reduce the shield cost and/or maintenence for the Colosseum.
  
• The Javelin Thrower is too powerful when used as a barb-farming unit. Reduce or remove enslavement chance against barbarians.
  
• Reduce free unit support for Republic, or increase free unit support for Democracy.
  
• Reduce unit support cost for Feudalism.
  

	31-12-2003 03:29									#28
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Jav throwers need 0 range bombard. the mayans have to wait till longbows to get one that can go on jungles.

	31-12-2003 03:34									#29
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Speaking of balance adjustments, here are some no-brainers, IMHO: Remove Electronics requirement from Motorized transportation. Remove the better sinking odds for the Seafaring trait. Free tech with Philosophy should be chosen randomly among all available techs. Free techs from Theory of Evolution should be chosen randomly from all available techs (and chosen sequentially, so that it's still possible to get Atomic Theory then Electronics). Remove ability from Curragh to enter ocean. Increase the bombard defense of Coastal Fortress by about 400%. Reduce the shield cost and/or maintenence for the Colosseum. The Javelin Thrower is too powerful when used as a barb-farming unit. Reduce or remove enslavement chance against barbarians. Reduce free unit support for Republic, or increase free unit support for Democracy. Reduce unit support cost for Feudalism.

Remove Electronics requirement from Motorized transportation. Agree. The Model T Ford had no electronics, and though I honestly don't know enough about the early tanks, I suspect they weren't packing vac-tubes.

Random choosing of free tech from Philo/Theory. Agree, but not terribly moved either way. It does seem a bit odd that you get to determine that one, but it is a nice edge for researching an otherwise blase tech. It would really stink to get Warrior Code for being the first to Philosophy. :P

Remove ability from Curragh to enter ocean. Agree again, but as I recall there were coding problems here. I'd go so far as to add "enter sea" to this list.

Increase the bombard defense of Coastal Fortress by about 400%. Maybe increase it some, but THAT much? They were defenses, but cannonballs still blew nice holes in them. There's a reason that metallurgy makes the Great Wall obsolete.

Reduce the shield cost and/or maintenence for the Colosseum Absolutely agree. I never build these, and those are the reasons why.

The Javelin Thrower is too powerful when used as a barb-farming unit. Reduce or remove enslavement chance against barbarians. Disagree. The Maya pay a price for that unit - it's not cheap, the slaves are slower, and archer-rushing isn't an option for the Maya. That also means the dreaded "Spiny spear defense" in MP (archers hiding behind spears, then counterattacking) isn't an option, either. If the Maya get their ideal set up of trapping a barb camp and the barb setting is high enough, hey, neat bonus - sort of like EXP on pangea, SEA on archipelago, and on and on. Situational bonus - the Javelin Thrower is far less useful should the barb setting be sedentary or none.

Reduce free unit support for Republic, or increase free unit support for Democracy. Disagree - the commerce bonuses for Democracy are tremendous, and Republic's unit support is only intended to give them a chance to develop infrastructure without choking to death on the cost of workers. War in Republic is no easy feat anymore - nor should it be in Democracy.

Reduce unit support cost for Feudalism. That's one option- I've started a thread on this very topic that I'd love input on:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=105310

	31-12-2003 03:35									#30
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Speaking of balance adjustments, here are some no-brainers, IMHO:

Well, not all of them are "no-brainers", IMO.

quote: Originally posted by alexman [*]Remove Electronics requirement from Motorized transportation.

It is intersting, but not, no brainer. Current version is not bad (there is reason to go for Tanks, so you can take out AI before he gets Mech. Infantry).

quote: Originally posted by alexman Remove ability from Curragh to enter ocean.

While I'm aware of some trading exploits with Curragh, it's important to note that there is no sea unit in original game that can't enter some water square. So it does seam a little bit weird way to fix things. Definetly not no-brainer.

quote: Originally posted by alexman Increase the bombard defense of Coastal Fortress by about 400%.

This one looks good, but should only be done if something similar can be applied to land bombardment.

quote: Originally posted by alexman Reduce the shield cost and/or maintenence for the Colosseum.

This one is traditional from previous Civ games (not as good as Catherdrals, but can be get earlier). So while it's not too good, it's still not no-brainer, more something that still needs to be discussed.