31-12-2003 21:23									#31
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Freaking scammers... and the thing is that they are so dumb too, that it is easy to know they are lying to us. Of course then you have the people who don't realize that low taxes means the government doesn't do everything for you. I'm sorry, we aren't going to LIE to your employer so you can get what you want!

	31-12-2003 21:32									#32
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I don't think I've ever called the DoL, and I probably could have used their help getting overtime pay a few years back.

	31-12-2003 21:50									#33
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quote: How many of 'em are still around that dealt with WW2 and earlier? The cold war thing was mostly crap for whiners.

Well, this says that there's 100,000 Europeans age 65 and over (1995) thus were born before 1930 and witnessed WW2. (14% of total population)

However, the effects of the wars are still around...for example, swastikas are banned in Germany...

I'll admit that the firsthand experiencers of wars and their horrors are mostly dead or aging (even though they occupy a nice 14% chunk of the population). But, to say that middle class Europe doesn't know the "horrors of war" because they didn't firsthand experience it is just, well, crap.

Eh...

	31-12-2003 22:17									#34
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quote: I don't think I've ever called the DoL, and I probably could have used their help getting overtime pay a few years back.

Jeez, you should have called earlier . Well you still can call (I think it'd be Wage and Hour that handles that) but they may tell stories about the guy who wants his OT pay from XX years ago . Though you can curtail the story telling if you have documentation and whatnot .

	31-12-2003 22:23									#35
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The United States (except for veterans) is completely ignorant of war. They haven't had to see their cities destroyed, their friends and families killed. Americans are clueless. They think war is a game. Most of these chickenhawks would probably **** their pants if they were stuck in the middle of a war.

	31-12-2003 22:25									#36
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So can we assume you are likewise clueless about war?

	31-12-2003 22:28									#37
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While the US has sent more of its boys to die since 1945 than Europe, as sava states, people in the uS have been blessed with great ignorance about the reality of political violence, one of the reaosns 9/11 affected people here so much- it is the ONLY great attack on the 48 states since 1814. And no one is alive to remember the last time War affected people int he uS directly at home, the civil war.


But while more Americans have died, we forget the fact that the Europeans fough imperial wars, sometimes very messy ones- the Brits have seen lots of combat, and the French, besides Indochina and Algeria have been sending troops all over the place in their old empire as well.

So this notion that Europeans don't "know" war is crap (plus, a higher portion of Europeans have undergone military service than Americans, given drafts).

	31-12-2003 22:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Verto So can we assume you are likewise clueless about war?

It's one of those things you know you don;t know. Personally, I hope I and anyone I love never knows it either.

	31-12-2003 22:32									#39
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quote: Well, this says that there's 100,000 Europeans age 65 and over (1995) thus were born before 1930 and witnessed WW2. (14% of total population)

100 000 THOUSAND... Sig material

Think, a bit before posting something you've 100% copy/pasted.

	31-12-2003 22:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Verto So can we assume you are likewise clueless about war?

absolutely... however, much of my family survived WW2 and has first hand experience with it. That gives me a more accurate perspective than most dopey Americans.

I'm also not in denial about my ignorance.

	31-12-2003 22:47									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sava absolutely... however, much of my family survived WW2 and has first hand experience with it. That gives me a more accurate perspective than most dopey Americans. I'm also not in denial about my ignorance.

You think most dopey Americans don't similarly have relatives who fought in World War II, Korea, or Vietnam, and to a certain extent, the Gulf Wars?

	31-12-2003 22:47									#42
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Well I guess this clip can appear cheesy to many. If I'm honest, I think it's cheesy too. But when I think about it, I don't think there's whole lots of wrong in this clip.

The only thing that bothers me is bringing that song to it. I don't want to hear about angels and stuff and see guns. They don't mix in my head, just like alcohol and driving. But that's my problem, and I know many don't have a problem with it.. just me. So.. cheesy definitely IMO, but hey some like it like that so I don't blame them.

I don't like to mix up religion and wars in any ways.. not even personal level. I know this is not mixing religion and war, but even this is bothering me personally. Not that others do it, I just can't. The only way I can see a priest in combat is if he/she blesses the troops before going into combat, and is there if someone wants to talk face to face with some spiritual issues or personal problem type of things. But that's it, other than that the priest better stay away from me because it ruins my spirits in a way. I don't know, maybe I'm just weird like that.

	31-12-2003 22:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Verto You think most dopey Americans don't similarly have relatives who fought in World War II, Korea, or Vietnam, and to a certain extent, the Gulf Wars?

He means more than veterans, but civilians who lived through war and what it brings- that is the part of war Americans have little clue about- living in a warzone beyond being a participant who's home is elsewhere. Veterans, if they live, get to go home. Same is not true for locals.

	31-12-2003 23:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by VJ 100 000 THOUSAND... Sig material Think, a bit before posting something you've 100% copy/pasted.

I don't get it, I didn't post "100,000 THOUSAND", I posted "100,000 Europeans" (nor did I copy/paste )

EDIT: Oh. Damn, now I see it. You Finns have a really dopey way of telling people they ****ed up.

	31-12-2003 23:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GePap He means more than veterans, but civilians who lived through war and what it brings- that is the part of war Americans have little clue about- living in a warzone beyond being a participant who's home is elsewhere. Veterans, if they live, get to go home. Same is not true for locals.

exactly... being a soldier in a warzone... is different than being a civilian, watching your home and town destroyed and your family killed. And the Gulf War? please... i know it was traumatic for a lot of people, but most gulf war "veterans" didn't even witness some of the more intense and gruesome aspects of that conflict. Plus, that war was primarily Saddam's army getting the **** kicked out of it in the desert. It doesn't compare to the civilian devastation in ww2. American troops didn't even go into any Iraqi cities.

But Verto... don't you think it's strange that those who have been in war are usually hesitant about using it so capriciously?

	31-12-2003 23:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GePap He means more than veterans, but civilians who lived through war and what it brings- that is the part of war Americans have little clue about- living in a warzone beyond being a participant who's home is elsewhere. Veterans, if they live, get to go home. Same is not true for locals.

On the contrary, I have a good idea of what it's like... and don't want that coming to my own shores.

But it's a nifty excuse for some people to justify pacifism, I guess.

	01-01-2004 00:11									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sava But Verto... don't you think it's strange that those who have been in war are usually hesitant about using it so capriciously?

I will defer to my good friend Patton.

"Men, this stuff we hear about America wanting to stay out of the war, not wanting to fight, is a lot of bullshit. Americans love to fight - traditionally."

	01-01-2004 00:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I couldn't stand to watch this horror more than 10 seconds. Is there any moment where you actually see soldiers doing a soldier's job?

You have more patience than I. I spent four seconds.

	01-01-2004 00:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I don't think I've ever called the DoL, and I probably could have used their help getting overtime pay a few years back. Jeez, you should have called earlier . Well you still can call (I think it'd be Wage and Hour that handles that) but they may tell stories about the guy who wants his OT pay from XX years ago . Though you can curtail the story telling if you have documentation and whatnot .

I think I kept the documentation.

	01-01-2004 00:22									#50
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Civil War anyone? Anyone seen pictures of Richmond after the Union leveled it? Anyone seen pictures of any other southern city after it was leveled? it I think it was one of (yes, Tass, I said one of) the bloodiest wars in history, but I'm just an ignorant American though.

And to say that doesn't count beacuse it happened too long ago is bull. WW2 happened a long time ago, and 100,000 90 year old veteran geezers aren't exactly influencing the foreign policy of Europe any more than Civil War vets are (and I think there might even still be one alive, or else he died recently).

And MtG is correct, soldiers are basically civil servants, like cops, they're not necessarily killing machines.

Besides, the fact that we haven't had many wars on this continent is supposed to be a bad thing? Maybe that the Euros have spent the last 2000 years blowing each other up and conducting ethnic cleansings (the last of which happening only 50 years ago) says something? But again, I'm just ignorant...

	01-01-2004 00:26									#51
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quote: Civil War anyone? Anyone seen pictures of Richmond after the Union leveled it? Anyone seen pictures of any other southern city after it was leveled? it I think it was one of (yes, Tass, I said one of) the bloodiest wars in history, but I'm just an ignorant American though. And to say that doesn't count beacuse it happened too long ago is bull. WW2 happened a long time ago, and 100,000 90 year old veteran geezers aren't exactly influencing the foreign policy of Europe any more than Civil War vets are (and I think there might even still be one alive, or else he died recently). And MtG is correct, soldiers are basically civil servants, like cops, they're not necessarily killing machines. Besides, the fact that we haven't had many wars on this continent is supposed to be a bad thing? Maybe that the Euros have spent the last 2000 years blowing each other up and conducting ethnic cleansings (the last of which happening only 50 years ago) says something? But again, I'm just ignorant...

With such reply, I agree. You're bloody ignorant.

	01-01-2004 00:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GePap He means more than veterans, but civilians who lived through war and what it brings- that is the part of war Americans have little clue about- living in a warzone beyond being a participant who's home is elsewhere. Veterans, if they live, get to go home. Same is not true for locals.

this of course assumes that all Americans were born here, which is not the case. My wife lived through the Hungarian revolution as a child, both her parents are death camp survivors. A few miles from where i used to live there is a shopping center that flies the flag of the old Republic of Viet Nam (Ie South VN) and its restaurants sometimes host ARVN reunions. In fact there were thousands of Americans pre 9/11 who had experienced war first hand as civilians in their own homes. We should not forget that they are Americans as well.

	01-01-2004 00:30									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The United States (except for veterans) is completely ignorant of war. They haven't had to see their cities destroyed, their friends and families killed. Americans are clueless. They think war is a game. Most of these chickenhawks would probably **** their pants if they were stuck in the middle of a war.

Chicken hawks like Paul Wolfowitz - most of whose extended family was killed between 1939 and 1945?

	01-01-2004 00:38									#54
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quote: Originally posted by GePap While the US has sent more of its boys to die since 1945 than Europe, as sava states, people in the uS have been blessed with great ignorance about the reality of political violence,

If youre going to broaden it to political violence, would you include the race riots of the 1960s (and before and after as well?) There are blocks in the city i live in that are only now recovering from the devastation of April 1968.

	01-01-2004 00:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You haven't seen my bad moods.

Yes we have, and some of us are fvcking tired of your melodramatic bad moods.

	01-01-2004 00:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Maybe that the Euros have spent the last 2000 years blowing each other up and conducting ethnic cleansings (the last of which happening only 50 years ago) says something?

That would be closer to 5 years ago.

	01-01-2004 00:57									#57
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quote: I think I kept the documentation.

Well if you got it, the only ones that can do anything about it is Wage and Hour (1-866-4USWAGE). I don't know IF they do much about overtime pay, but you can try.

	01-01-2004 00:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Yes we have, and some of us are fvcking tired of your melodramatic bad moods.

Oh no you haven't. Fortunately, I keep a very tight reign on my anger. All you've seen is my annoyance with you.

	01-01-2004 01:12									#59
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Civil War anyone? Anyone seen pictures of Richmond after the Union leveled it? Anyone seen pictures of any other southern city after it was leveled? it I think it was one of (yes, Tass, I said one of) the bloodiest wars in history, but I'm just an ignorant American though. And to say that doesn't count beacuse it happened too long ago is bull. WW2 happened a long time ago, and 100,000 90 year old veteran geezers aren't exactly influencing the foreign policy of Europe any more than Civil War vets are (and I think there might even still be one alive, or else he died recently). And MtG is correct, soldiers are basically civil servants, like cops, they're not necessarily killing machines. Besides, the fact that we haven't had many wars on this continent is supposed to be a bad thing? Maybe that the Euros have spent the last 2000 years blowing each other up and conducting ethnic cleansings (the last of which happening only 50 years ago) says something? But again, I'm just ignorant...

Tuomerehu/VJ is right (you're bloody ignorant) but I'm bored.

quote: Civil War anyone? Anyone seen pictures of Richmond after the Union leveled it? Anyone seen pictures of any other southern city after it was leveled? it I think it was one of (yes, Tass, I said one of) the bloodiest wars in history, but I'm just an ignorant American though.

(1) Yes, the Civil War was the bloodiest war in AMERICAN history. But as far as world history, there are far bloodier wars.
(2) Didn't the CSA attempt to burn down a few supply buildings in Richmond so the USA couldn't use them? And then, of course, the firs spread, and the city was toastified

quote: And to say that doesn't count beacuse it happened too long ago is bull. WW2 happened a long time ago, and 100,000 90 year old veteran geezers aren't exactly influencing the foreign policy of Europe any more than Civil War vets are (and I think there might even still be one alive, or else he died recently).

(1) The Civil War was fought in 1861-1865. If a man old enough to fight in that war (at least 18) were still around today, don't you...well, ****it. The direct way of saying this is that PEOPLE DON'T LIVE 150 YEARS YET. The last CW vet is looooong dead
(2) AFAEurope, it's only 100,000,000 (thanks Tuome) people 65 and older (not 90). And, yes, old people actually do vote. That's how the affect foreign policy, and they're doing it a lot more than dead CW vets are.

quote: Besides, the fact that we haven't had many wars on this continent is supposed to be a bad thing?

We're trying to prove which continent knows more about the horrors of war.

What's the lesson of all this folks?
Read the thread before you post

	01-01-2004 01:50									#60
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My relatives have told me so many horror stories from WW2 I think I'm scarred for life Both my granddads and their brothers saw action (Norway, New Guinea, D-day). My grandma was active in the resistance movement. What gets to me the most though is the stories from everyday life, how people had no freedom what so ever. That's why I hate dictatorships etc.