01-01-2004 01:14									#1
	Either Church or No Marriage! Full PM-box? Change here!

My Fiance is telling me she can't marry me (or anyone) that doesn't go to church willingly.

I told her I am neutral about going to church. I told her that I don't mind church at all and I wouldn't mind it if I went there with her, but I am not actually wanting to go there for my own purposes.

In other words, I'm happy wherever we go, but when it comes to church, she doesn't think that's good enough.

Ok, key points are: she's a Chinese Christian (Singaporean to be exact). I am finding them to be christians to the extreme - like, insane extreme.

When I found out that I had to be in her church just to be allowed to marry her, I was quite shocked and disgusted by that rule. (Luckily though, she doesn't really care for that rule). But that's just an example of what I mean. It sounds more like a cult to me, even though it's a nice family church (www.evangel.org.sg).


So anyway, we kind of got the feeling that we're going to break up lastnight; I want to marry her, but in my point of view, she is turning me down (coz I won't go to church for my own personal reasons). But in her point of view, I am turning her down (coz I won't go to church for my own personal resaon!!).

Got ourselves in a major situation now.

Is she right or am I right?

	01-01-2004 01:16									#2
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Should've discussed this before the engagement...

	01-01-2004 01:16									#3
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Do you love your fiance more than you hate her church?

	01-01-2004 01:17									#4
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youre wrong because youre male. get used to it.

	01-01-2004 01:18									#5
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both, sorta

basically oyu will both need to work together for this to work

and I would suggest a compromise

like

tell her that church has not been an important part of your life perviously, but that oyu are willing to give it a go

this is not (I think) aginst your values, nor is it lying (I feel that it is imporatnt not too lie)

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:20									#6
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Dump it on her. Tell you how you feel, and that's that. If she decides to leave you for her church, thank God (no joke intended) that she can't claim alimony/half your assets... cause this issue is NOT going to go away, not if she remains as devout as you claim she is.

Yeah, it's hard. But better hard now than impossible-to-get-out-of later.

	01-01-2004 01:20									#7
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Depends... Is she hot?

	01-01-2004 01:21									#8
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basically I am getting that she wants oyu to beleive?

or feel similiarly to her?

this is usual, and within reason, but it is also within reason for you to feel differently, so you are both right

as it is, the bset you can do, I think, is be honest

if oyu are willing to give it a go (which it seems that you might), than that would show that you are working with her

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:21									#9
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It is important not to lie.

The thing is, I am willing to go to church with her, but I don't have a need to go to church, she just wants me to have that need.

	01-01-2004 01:21									#10
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Hot enough for Sn00py, obviously.

	01-01-2004 01:22									#11
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If you love her go to the ****ing church. I bet 90% of the people there don't really want to be there either

	01-01-2004 01:23									#12
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quote: Should've discussed this before the engagement..

I concur. This is extremely important which should have been brought up earlier. I don't think you are being unreasonable at all.

	01-01-2004 01:24									#13
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You're going to church just to please her... are you willing to do this for the rest of your life? Are you willing to have the demands increase as time goes by (and they will). What about your kids - how will she take it if Daddy doesn't believe, he just goes to please Mommy.

	01-01-2004 01:25									#14
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hmm

see, I consider myself a christian (not neccesarily a good one)

but I don't feel a particular need to go to chruch (I haven't been since my dad died)

I do read my bible at least once a week, and I pray every day

so I am still religious, I just haven't got a whole lot out of church recently

and maybe I should go to chruch, maybe I am missing a lot

but havning not done it recenlt y(and not much before that), I don't really know if I am missing anything

I know some people who get a lot out of chrch, and I think tah it is somewhat dependent ont he church and the people involved

like UI know that I got a lot mroe out of the church I went to in minnesota

try it out, if youa re not getting much out of it, be honets with her (maybe suggest visitng other churchs)

unless oyu have something against trying it out

also, It hink that you are young, oyu don't need to get married now, you can just keep dating her and see if this can't be resolved

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:26									#15
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Yes, well, we did discuss it 3 years ago.


She told me yesterday that it bothers her, but she seems to have been ignoring it for the past3 years, hoping that I will change.

I told her lastnight that I won't change who I am - I don't think that is the right thing to do in this situation.

	01-01-2004 01:28									#16
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so you have a beleive against going to church?

sorry I didn't pick it up in your first post

well, if oyu are not willing to try it, than I recommend just being honest

she can decide wether to stay with you (hopeing you will change), or go ahead with the amrriage, or to end it

jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:28									#17
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quote: she seems to have been ignoring it for the past3 years, hoping that I will change.

Oy, not good. I think you did the right thing. You don't want to change and feel strongly about it.

	01-01-2004 01:30									#18
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"Hoping that you will change..."

So many relationships have collapsed waiting on people to change. Honestly, I know it's harsh but you need to put your foot down and let her know that it is her decision; that you are who you are and you just don't believe. Period.

	01-01-2004 01:30									#19
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I still say that you are both right

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:32									#20
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people do change though

but you changing for her is not a real change, and she should see that

you gusy both just need to determine how important it is to you both

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:33									#21
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btw

are you spiritual?
agnostic?
christian (but differently convicted)?
athiest?

some other religion?

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:34									#22
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if you are athiest, I would say tell her so, and know that it probably won't work

christian (but differently convicted), probably could work

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:36									#23
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Whatever makes U happy should be your primary goal.......................

	01-01-2004 01:37									#24
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lol

still lots of things I need to clear up

I have gone to church for many months, but it is now starting to repeat itself, and I can see now what church really is. I don't see a NEED for it.

It's like School, you can go there to learn Mathematics, but you don't NEED to, you could learn Mathematics elsewhere. I just don't see Church as being extremely important. But my Fiance does and she wants me to aswell.

Ah well, have to wait and see. I did tell her that it's her choice, but she was too afraid to make that choice and so she would put the choice back on to me; of course, to me, I don't really have a choice. I want to marry her, I just don't want to go to church for it, because that doesn't sound quite right. "Oh, you don't feel the need to go to church, so I can't marry you". Does that honestly make sense to anyone? What purpose would it have?

	01-01-2004 01:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller btw are you spiritual? agnostic? christian (but differently convicted)? athiest? some other religion? Jon Miller

I don't like to categorize myself and what I believe in, so I never say I am a christian or whatever.

But I do believe in God.

	01-01-2004 01:41									#26
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It makes all the sense in the world to me... she's a believer and that's how she thinks.

If you want to get married despite this hanging over your head, write up a pre-nuptial agreement waiving her right to claim alimony if she decides to leave you partly or totally for "religious differences."

	01-01-2004 01:43									#27
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you seem to be christian (differently convicted)

it probably should work than

you will just have to work with her, (as she should work with you)

one thing you can suggest is that you guys try goign to a different church

I found that some got stale and lacked worth, but others were much more satisfying

maybe you would find one to be satisfying also

(as in mathematics classes, some profs are slow and unsatisfying, and you are better to learn outside of class, other profs are exciting and imaginative and thier classes are a joy to go to)

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:46									#28
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I wonder if her church is putting any pressure on her.

	01-01-2004 01:46									#29
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sorry

than I would probably classify you as spiritual (a lot of my freinds who use to be christians are this way)

is it truly a church thing (as in going to church), or is it a christian thing? (like what oyu beleive)

also, you can talk to others, but churchs can provide a lot of survice of a non spiritual nature

as in social survice

AH has talked about this facet numerous times

Jon Miller

	01-01-2004 01:58									#30
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If you don't see a need to go to church, then you and she are probably in different camps and will be until one or both of you changes.

I would assume that she is a born again believer. If so she almost certainly believes that you are going to go to hell if you are not born again. I think she wants you in church in the hope you will be saved.

If by saying that you do not see the need to go to church, and by extension, do not see the need to be saved it would lead to the conclusion that you are an unbeliever, at least in the need to recieve the Holy Spirit.

I'd guess one or both of you are ducking the real issue by trying to define this as a "going to church" issue rather than an issue of faith.

All things being equal I do not think she should marry you. God commands his children to be separate from the world. Following that command leads to joy, ignoring it to sorrow.