02-01-2004 02:20									#1
	Lack of resources: good or bad? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Is anyone troubled by the lack of resources in the new game? Playing on a standard size map on regent as Russia, I had 13 or 14 cities going, got military tradition (for Cossacks), and had 1) no iron, 2) no horses), and 3) no saltpetre.

I know I don't need all those for Cossacks but it just seemed a considerable hardship. Okay, I could trade for one or more of these, right? I gave away the farm to get horses and iron but couldn't get salt peter. I had also researched steam power but couldn't build railroads because I had NO COAL!

After going to war and getting the saltpetre, I built some Cossacks but the rest of the world ganged up on me and I finally gave up.

Is there a way to adjust resources in the editor? I am utterly editor-ignorant so any help here would be appreciated. But I'm more interested to learn how you are handling the lack of resources. (I've played enough games that it seems to be fairly usual.)

	02-01-2004 02:52									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think 'lack of resources' SUCKS!!!

That said, I modded it out, all my worlds are very rich, vibrant and robust, every civ has near immediate access to everything straight away and we still all leave much on the table.

Of course, this IS just my opinion, your experience may vary.

Sincerely,

	02-01-2004 02:53									#3
	Tired of ads?

I hate it when Refining comes around and you find out that, because there are virtually no deserts, there is about one oil for every two civs.

	02-01-2004 02:54									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I don't know too much about the editor, but it just sounds like you're awfully unlucky. My suggestions:

1) Expand agressively in the Ancient Age. Bloat up your Empire until it bumps the borders of the other ones, and fill in every empty city location there is. That's one way of assuring you'll get a lot of resources.
2) If you happen to start on a huge expanse of grassland, so you can't have anything that's only on Desert or Mountain (or vice-versa) then attack so that you gain a little variety with your terrain types.
3) If you notice the enemy has a resource that you don't, strike and get it ASAP if at all possible.
4) Remember that in Civ, that one tile of Iron supplies Iron to your entire civilization. So, that's got to be one feckin' huge iron deposit. So the scarcity isn't all that unrealistic really.

How to increase resource appearance:
-Open C3C Editor
-Scenario > Custom Rules
-OK
-Rules>Edit>Natural Resources
-Increase appearance ratio by whatever you feel suitable. (I can't remember how much they reduced them in the new exp pack, but I think it was to 1/3, so multiply the current ratio by 3)
-Do that for every resource
-Close
-File > Save > save it in the filename that you wish.
-You'll have to open that scenario when you want to play with resource abundance.

You can make these changes to the basic game too, but I STRONGLY recommend against that. Whenever you make any changes to the basic game scen (conquests.bic), MAKE SURE you BACK IT UP.

	02-01-2004 02:59									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Many thanks. Especially mrmitchell. Don't know whether I'll monkey in the editor yet but it's nice to know I can.

	02-01-2004 03:11									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I haven't seen that bad of maps, you must be unlucky (or I must be lucky). In any case, I think less resources is a good thing. It forces interaction between civs and adds challenges to overcome.

	02-01-2004 03:24									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have found that sometimes resources can be so scarce, that you can't even trade for them.

Even finding a civ that has some extra resources is a *****.

Let alone hoping that he hasn't traded them to someone else.

I can't understand why they made resources even more hard to find in conquests. civ 3 had it about right.

unless they aren't and i'm just unlucky too.

	02-01-2004 03:24									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The "problem" with reduced resources is that you end up with "3rd world" nations that just do not have the wherewithall to compete. If you do not win the lottery, YOU could be one of those unfortunates.

In the epics where I have been agricultural, I have done quite well, REX-wise, and the first civ on the continent that attacks me is history.

	02-01-2004 03:27									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I feel the lack of resource/lux is turning C3C into a must war game. I like the concept of some missing, but it seems to be a bit out of alignment.

	02-01-2004 05:58									#10
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I can only speak for myself and in my experience, and that is a couple of epic games, the lack of resources is positive...

Maybe this has something to do with me mostly playing huge maps, and many of the civs get knocked out in the beginning so resources most of the time are enough for everyone...

	02-01-2004 06:07									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

it's a lot of fun in MP games.

as for SP, you do end up with a lot of 3rd world nations. in my current game, the Inca were larger than the maya (literally double the size), but had no resources, while the maya had horses and iron. needless to say, the inca are dead.

it's really fun to fight for the iron though, but i'm a warmonger at heart .

here's a screen from my first conquests game i didn't have any oil in all that land, but the byzantines managed to sneak in a while back

	02-01-2004 11:12									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Distribution of resources in C3C is TOTALLY different (details)

Originally posted by embryodead
Most have already noticed that there are less strategic resources in C3C epic game than in Civ3/PTW. Well it's much more than that. The distribution pattern is totally different. BTW if you just want to know how to get PTW resource occurence in C3C, jump to the end of the post...
If you're a modder, you might want to read the whole, since you will most likely have to change appearance ratios in your mod when converting it from PTW to C3C.

For PTW:
1). strategic resources: RATIO * #PLAYERS / 100, rounded down
2). luxuries: random, from 50 to 100% of #PLAYERS (est.)
unless there is ratio given, then the formula is the same as for 1).
3). generator checks how much space is left (out of the approx. 4% of them map), divides that by the number of bonus resources, rounds that down and distibutes them, so there is the same amount of all.
Note: map sizes and terrain features are irrelevant, unless you mess with extreme values (ie. 16x16 tiles maps etc.)

BTW it is completly different from what help file says, but you can test for yourself that the help is wrong both for PTW and C3C stating that a ratio of 160 should give 16 resources in 8 player game (it gives 12 in PTW and 9 in C3C).

For C3C:
The test shown was made on the unmodded PTW & C3C, standard map, 8 players, default world settings (age, land etc.), but the general idea is valid for any game, modded or not (I started testing in my mod, which has 39 resources). 10 maps were generated, C3MT was used to count resources. Other combinations were just checked to see if anything changes.



Further experiments
Keep in mind that none of the values are valid for a particular resources, since these can be modded at will. The values are rather valid for a given resource type. Why so much more Whales and Fish then? It seems that the more terrain of a given type (ie. sea), the more resources C3C will create. When I allowed Whales in plains, deserts etc., C3C generated less of them (no more than 18). Then, when I removed them from the sea, C3C generated less Whales than Game, Wheat etc.

Unique resources
Yes, it is now possible. The minimal number of strategic resources in PTW was 2, regardless of any settings. In C3C it has changed to 1, so you can finally make a truly unique resource.

Summary
1). C3C generates about 1/3 less strategic and luxury resources than PTW with the same settings. The minimal amount is 1.
2). C3C generates much more bonus resources, evenly distributing on a given terrain type and with respect to the amount of that terrain on the map (which directly translates to much more resources in water than on the land). This is actually quite an improvement. PTW generated the same amount of all bonus resources, which was the cause of common "fish shortage" feeling in many mods
3). In C3C world shape/features affect the distribution of resources, unlike in PTW.

I state that the new formula for resources with ratio set is:
RATIO * #PLAYERS / 133, rounded down
it seems valid for all tests I made for unmodded game as well as my mod, though it will vary slighly depending on the world shape/climate etc.

If you want your PTW resources back...
Just multiply all ratios by 1.33
These are correct values for you: Iron & Horses: 212, Coal, Saltpeter, Oil, Rubber: 160, Uranium: 140
This gives the PTW results in most cases. C3C tended to give 7 Uranium, instead of 8, so I raised it to 140.
Not much can be done about luxuries - you will get 3 to 6 instead to 4 to 8. You can set ratio for them, but then, you lose randomness.
You will get less bonus resource of course, like in PTW, though they will be still distributed in C3C "better" ie. more fishes/whales, less oasis etc.

	02-01-2004 11:32									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The ratios have been working out nicely in my current games. Its really making me have to trade or conquer for those that I don't currently have- and I've yet to play a game where I had NONE at all.

	02-01-2004 12:58									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In any case, if you play with lots of civs...a few are sure to die out on mid and higher levels...so -ALMOST- problem solved

	02-01-2004 18:04									#15
	Tired of ads?

quote: i didn't have any oil in all that land, but the byzantines managed to sneak in a while back

Just goes to prove that the AI knows in advance where the resources are before discovering the "revealer tech"....and why they colonize in the middle of Deserts and Tundra

	02-01-2004 18:31									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thanks kring. Very thorough. Has there been any discussion that Firaxis might adjust the formula in the next patch?

	02-01-2004 19:53									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Lack of resources adds to the challenge of the game. It may force you into war sooner than you want. You can always play on a larger size world and/or with fewer opponents if this is a big issue for you.

	02-01-2004 20:53									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Lack of resources adds to the challenge of the game. It may force you into war sooner than you want. You can always play on a larger size world and/or with fewer opponents if this is a big issue for you.

I agreee. It can change a game significantly if you find yourself without saltpeter etc.

In my current game (conquest only) I had planned out who I was going to take out first, second etc and then I discovered gunpowder and realised I had no saltpeter. It changed my whole approach when I found that the civ I was going to deal wiith last had the only available/reachable supply.

That's why I love this game!

	02-01-2004 21:58									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

one thing I noticed is that cattle very often are clumped together like lux resources are...

was it always like this? at least I donīt remember it being so

	02-01-2004 23:00									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I just discovered Steam Power, and I did a ctrl shift m. I might have passed one over, but it appears that I have the only Coal in the entire world.

I don't want to to restart so far into a game, but the AI won't have RR's or Factories....won't be as fun.....

	02-01-2004 23:03									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Remember resources can deplete and be "discovered" (I know some won't). So it is possible that coal will appear elsewhere at some point.
I will say I do not see much of that anymore.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 03-01-2004 at 03:15

	03-01-2004 00:03									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

doesnīt new resources just appear when they deplete somewhere else?

	03-01-2004 00:52									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Kring - thanks for reposting that info.

I posted my opinions at length on this thread on the strategy forum. In short, I feel that the resource scarcity has abolished peaceful building at a stroke and damaged the balance of the game. It's good for killer AI's, but not everyone likes those. I for one prefer numerous competing Civs rather than a couple of superpowers and the rest irrelevant.

	03-01-2004 01:29									#24
	Put an end to popups!

If the new resource allocation has abolished peaceful building, it has ALSO taught that a nation's survival/prosperity is built on Tough Choices.

Rome was not (initially) after an Empire; they were only concerned with security and external threats to what they already had.

	03-01-2004 03:19									#25
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Fatwreck doesnīt new resources just appear when they deplete somewhere else?

I am not sure any more. In the early days of CivIII it seemed that a resource depleted and then reapeared some place in the same turn most of the time.

In PTW it seemed less frequent and they did not always reappear.

Now I am not seeing it much at all.

So I am not sure what the mechanics of it are at all. I only tossed that out a possiblity.

	03-01-2004 19:01									#26
	Tired of ads?

I have only seen one resource appear in C3C, (oil)... I remember a resource beeing depleted in that same game... canīt recall if that was oil too tho...

	03-01-2004 23:37									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I had one resource deplete and reappear last night. So it seems to still work as it alwyas has, but just less frequently. This game was just hitting the modern era and that was the first one.

	04-01-2004 01:21									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

i gotta say, i bumped up the resource appearance rates to c3 levels before starting my 31 civ game, and honestly, i wish i hadn't. the map is CRAWLING with resources (yes, i know it's cause there are so many civs).

for instance, incense and silk. i found the island (i'm playing on pangaea, so there's always that one small island...). two bass ackwards civs, the vikings and the japanese. they've got incense and silk ALL OVER their island. i counted: 18 silk, 17 incense!

and yes, i'm going to invade, just as soon as the crazy people on the mainland stop attacking me

	04-01-2004 01:34									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Pauli that is the fault of the map generator itself not the set level of resource appearance. Small islands must be manually 'joined' by a land bridge and then have the editor 're-calculate' resources and you find the distribution evened out.

	04-01-2004 01:43									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

what i'm saying is, that's representative of the other resources on the mainland - on the island, i could actually count them, but elsewhere they are about the same. russia is sitting on a VAST field of diamond mines, the central jungle has great big jets of dyes shooting up out of the ground, well over a dozen grapes are spread around the west coast, and you should SEE the elephant herds all over. i've got four or five horses, just in my core cities. iron? everywhere. there's even copious amounts of saltpeter.

i'm not anticipating much difficulty when i go looking for coal.