03-01-2004 17:05									#1
	A Few Questions About The Iraq War Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I just want to get everyone's general opinion on this.
Do you think President Bush started military action too soon?
Did you feel that you had said everything you wanted to say about the pre-war issues at that time? Or were you bored of it by then and waiting for something new to occur?
Knowing that the war would be inevitable, would you prefer that it had occurred sooner or later?


Thanks.

	03-01-2004 17:46									#2
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Assuming that it was inevitable, and throwing all political justifications (or lack there of) aside, I think that it happened excatly when it did.

	03-01-2004 17:47									#3
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war is over. it is the important thing for all of us.no need any discussions.

	03-01-2004 18:22									#4
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quote: war is over. it is the important thing for all of us.no need any discussions.

Succintly put.

	03-01-2004 18:34									#5
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quote: Do you think President Bush started military action too soon?

Negative.

quote: Did you feel that you had said everything you wanted to say about the pre-war issues at that time?

Negative.

quote: Or were you bored of it by then and waiting for something new to occur?

Positive.

quote: Knowing that the war would be inevitable, would you prefer that it had occurred sooner or later?

Sooner.

	03-01-2004 19:16									#6
	Re: A Few Questions About The Iraq War Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DaShi I just want to get everyone's general opinion on this. Do you think President Bush started military action too soon?

Yes, waaaay too soon. No other means have been explored, and the whole UN charade was the US trying to get the rest of the world on its side in a war that was planned to happen regardless.

quote: Did you feel that you had said everything you wanted to say about the pre-war issues at that time?

I think so. But that's because I was pretty prolific at that time

quote: Or were you bored of it by then and waiting for something new to occur?

No. Every second of non-war still bore the hope that war would be averted in the end. Besides, there is something fun in arguing always about the same things with the same arguments

quote: Knowing that the war would be inevitable, would you prefer that it had occurred sooner or later?

If I had known the war was inevitable, I would have preferred it to happen sooner, before the UN charade. So that at least, the UN wouldn't be tainted in this debacle.

	03-01-2004 19:55									#7
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Maybe Bush should have waited for another 12 U.N. resolutions (read 10 years).

	03-01-2004 20:10									#8
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Wow. Two DL dances in one thread.

I wasn't here at the time of pre-war buildup, but it was plain to me that Bush meant to go ahead with the invasion. I was undecided for awhile, then came to the conclusion Saddam has always been a thug and shouldv'e been gone over 20 years ago. But I also hoped that Bush & co. wouldn't **** up their diplomacy so badly that they alienated the rest of the world, which except Britain they managed to do. It's a pretty incredible example of ineptitude, I must say.

	03-01-2004 20:13									#9
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quote: [Bush & co.] alienated the rest of the world, which except Britain they managed to do

You really don't know much about the world outside US, do you?

	03-01-2004 20:33									#10
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Amazing that France had enough diplomatic power to create an image that the world was against the invasion. Sure there were people from every country on both sides of the issue, but the only countries in Europe that were officially opposed to the war were France, Germany, Russia, Belgium and Greece. It is even more amazing that France has been able to create the image that we screwed up diplomatically when it is they who are becoming more diplomatically isolated. Chirac and company have laid one of the biggest diplomatic eggs of th last 50 years.

quote: Do you think President Bush started military action too soon?

Actually it probably should have started sooner. The French debacle at the UN may have been avoided then.

quote: Did you feel that you had said everything you wanted to say about the pre-war issues at that time?

Well I said plenty, but I would be happy to say it all again! (Well, maybe I would modify that WMD argument some )

quote: were you bored of it by then and waiting for something new to occur?

Definately not bored. The world was changing in front of our very eyes.

quote: Knowing that the war would be inevitable, would you prefer that it had occurred sooner or later?

Again, sooner. The French would probably be helping the Iraqi people now if we had been able to save them from embarrising themselves.


Red countries against war. Blue countries supported. White were nuetral.

	03-01-2004 20:35									#11
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Good, fast edit

Too bad that the map info seems to be BS, judging by a quick glance.
Could you tell me where did you get your information about the map?

Last edited by VJ on 03-01-2004 at 21:14

	03-01-2004 20:47									#12
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quote: Originally posted by VJ You really don't know much about the world outside US, do you?

Enough to know that even in those countries that eventually supported Bush (some of them were swayed by an increase in foreign aid, great set of principles guys), a significant number of their people were set against it. In some cases, the majority of the population.

	03-01-2004 20:49									#13
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One thing is the govt and other thing is the population. There can be issues where the population's feelings are different from goverement's feeling. In all the UE the majority of population was against the war - In Spain only 10% (or even less, I don't recall the exact figure) was pro-war.

	03-01-2004 20:50									#14
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quote: Enough to know that even in those countries that eventually supported Bush (some of them were swayed by an increase in foreign aid, great set of principles guys), a significant number of their people were set against it. In some cases, the majority of the population.

Yeah, in some cases. Unfortunately, GB was one of those 'cases', while some nations, such as Australia and Denmark had majority of both of their politicians and citizen's supporting the war, so your post doesn't contain any logic at all.

EDIT:

quote: One thing is the govt and other thing is the population. There can be issues where the population's feelings are different from goverement's feeling. In all the UE the majority of population was against the war - In Spain only 10% (or even less, I don't recall the exact figure) was pro-war.

Yeah, I remember seeing a debate in the parliament from TV upon being in a holiday at Spain. Altough I didn't understand a word of the language, it was clear as water that Aznar was in bad trouble there.

	03-01-2004 21:03									#15
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You're missing the point. The case to go to war could've been made easily, but the way Bush presented himself BEFORE any major diplomatic efforts had been put forth turned a significant % of opinion against the war. What should have been an easy marshalling of U.N./public support instead turned into the mess we have today.

	03-01-2004 21:10									#16
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quote: You're missing the point.

Probably. When you're using BS-arguments to support your view, it's kinda rare for others to immediately start agreeing with the view, when you can just easily blow up the arguments with facts first.

quote: The case to go to war could've been made easily, but the way Bush presented himself BEFORE any major diplomatic efforts had been put forth turned a significant % of opinion against the war. What should have been an easy marshalling of U.N./public support instead turned into the mess we have today.

I disagree. IMO, with the BSWMD -mumbo jumbo going on, there were no way how Bush could've reached UN support. As for public support, Bush administration hasn't lost it domestically, and it has no direct use for temporary public support in foreign nations.

EDIT: added "for others"

	03-01-2004 21:42									#17
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On popular opinion- in the vast majority of countries that supported the war was there a majority of the population that opposed the war, speically in Italy and Spain. IN Australia a majority opposed the war before it started: only after it started did support shift since troops were on the ground. I don;t know about Denmark_ if it is true the majoirty supported the war before action was taken, then that would make Denmark the only state outside of Kuwait and the US in which the war was popular before the start.

As whether the war started too soon- wrong question-the question is whether the war started after the admin. had laid down a good base form which to move- the answer is no.

Did I say all I had to say? I did one thread in which I laid out my whole case- I don;t think anyone looked at it- there is difference between saying it, and it being listened to. I prefer the later.

Knowing the war to be inevitable, sooner- then we would be further along in this morass and the Unophobes would have goten less of a show.

	03-01-2004 21:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav One thing is the govt and other thing is the population. There can be issues where the population's feelings are different from goverement's feeling. In all the UE the majority of population was against the war - In Spain only 10% (or even less, I don't recall the exact figure) was pro-war.

Nicely put.

	03-01-2004 21:57									#19
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Ihave to say something about the Balkans. Bulgaria, FYROM, Albania this is all public relations. Their populations were hugely indifferent and to a large degree hostile. Turkey's too. What their governments though (the Balkans not Turkey, it's more complicated in that case) was that by just putting themselves in that list they could expect some favors from the US.

That's hardly "legitimazing" anything.
And I guarantee that 10 years from now everything around Greece will be red and happy.

	03-01-2004 21:59									#20
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quote: I don;t think anyone looked at it- there is difference between saying it, and it being listened to. I prefer the later.

I did, and I think that you were simply superb when it came to debating about that conflict.

	03-01-2004 22:03									#21
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I was also talking with some Romanians. The people live in dire poverty and immigrate like Greeks did some decades ago. When asked about what they thought about their government puting their country on the list their first responce was: what? (they didn't even know it) And the second: "we are poor" and were apologetic and certaintly didn't have any fond feelings about the US action. FYROM did it in order to have an official list with the name "Macedonia" and not "FYROM" in it and was granted that. Then Greece reacted and the US backed down and said that was an exception and nothing changes in this. And FYROM was dissapointed I'd guess. Albania needs all the help it can get too. I suppose they could easily be swayed not to put their names on the list but wasn't deemed important.

There are two counties which truly supported the war wholeheartdedly, their populations and their government. Denmark and the UK. About the UK there were huge resistance by the people though.

	03-01-2004 22:20									#22
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Something about Italy Spain. That was internal EU pissing contest using Iraq's issue as leverage. Nothing to do with Iraq's war proper. Unfortunately they now pay the price for that by sending their troops there.

Poland and the other former eastern block countries. Largely similar with the Balkan situation. They thought they'd get favors from the US (it's characteristic and a bit funny that the Polish prime minister IIRC released a document which was completely opposed to his gov) and for those eastern countries future EU members they also thought they could use that as leverage for the EU. Miscalculation.

My point is, puting the name on the Iraq's list ironically enough but certaintly not surpisingly had nothing to do with the Iraq war. I'm particularly proud about little Greece I have to say. I thought that geopolitical necessities would make us put the name of the country on the list too. I'm happy to see this is not happening and I'm very optimistc. Either Greece has strengthened considerably the past few years to carve an intependent external policy or the inside reaction was so strong as to forbid the government to do anything else. Both pleasant and optimistic scenarios. And I bet for once Axi will have nothing to say about that

	03-01-2004 22:39									#23
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Of course there's the other side of the story which needs to be said too. This is ironic as well. You have countries in blue which virtually did nothing about the war in the practical aspect. And then you have countries in red or white which helped though their conventional NATO obligations or even if they are neutral. So you have Ireland (nuetral) and Greece (NATO) and Germany (NATO) white red red which fulfilled their obligations through use of NATO bases as the chart defines and others which are blue which did not do anything either because they couldn't or didn't want to because their national interests dictate so. So there's also irony and hypocricy there as well. My point is that the blue white and red map is a hugely oversimplified way of looking at the matter IMHO.

	03-01-2004 22:53									#24
	Re: A Few Questions About The Iraq War Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DaShi Do you think President Bush started military action too soon?

yes and no... it should have been taken care of in 1991... having said that... I don't feel military action was necessary. Saddam was slowly being choked to death. In addition, the methods used to gain "public" support of the war were dishonest and immoral.

quote: Did you feel that you had said everything you wanted to say about the pre-war issues at that time?

yes... although I suspect there were WMDs and that they would be used in conflict. I think it's a testament to the failure of the intelligence of the US and Britain, and the Bush admin, that there weren't WMD's. I remember a Rumsfeld quote. "We know where the WMD's are and we will get them."

I think something will be found, but it won't be the imminent threat we were told about.

quote: Or were you bored of it by then and waiting for something new to occur?

I would have been content with nothing occuring... who knows... another 6 months or a year and maybe Saddam gets overthrown, or the world community joins in some military effort. A true coalition... not one of the bribed, cajoled and blackmailed.

quote: Knowing that the war would be inevitable, would you prefer that it had occurred sooner or later?

as I said before... 1991 was a great time to take care of it... but as his son has, George Bush Sr. made a mistake.

quote: Thanks.

your welcome

	03-01-2004 22:55									#25
	Re: A Few Questions About The Iraq War Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by DaShi I just want to get everyone's general opinion on this. Do you think President Bush started military action too soon? Did you feel that you had said everything you wanted to say about the pre-war issues at that time? Or were you bored of it by then and waiting for something new to occur? Knowing that the war would be inevitable, would you prefer that it had occurred sooner or later? Thanks.

Why didn't you just create a thread title that said, "Hey MTG, I got a few questions for you?"

	03-01-2004 23:00									#26
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Good, fast edit Too bad that the map info seems to be BS, judging by a quick glance. Could you tell me where did you get your information about the map?

http://www.geocities.com/pwhce/willing.html

	03-01-2004 23:00									#27
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willing.html

btw, that map seems to reflect countries whose GOVERnMENTS have supported the war in some fashion... it doesn't reflect popular opinion.

Even the majority of people in our lapdog ally Britain don't support the war.

	03-01-2004 23:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sava willing.html btw, that map seems to reflect countries whose GOVERnMENTS have supported the war in some fashion... it doesn't reflect popular opinion. Even the majority of people in our lapdog ally Britain don't support the war.

Sava, Even in the US the populace has rarely supported war. WWI and WWII were big exceptions to our own history. During the Mexican war our government was very worried about insurrection due to the war. There is nothing unusual about popular opinion being against war. Governments will support such things when they see them in their own long term best interest. The question here is why did France, Belgium, Germany, Russia, and Greece not see this in the long term best interest of their country?

	04-01-2004 00:01									#29
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I think it is a case of intelligent people in the know of goverment agencies making enlightened decisions while their people sat in blissful ignorance taking ideologiclal views becasue they could, they didn't have to worry about the horrendous consequences of not acting because their government s would do the right thing anyways and take all the flak.

War was right, even if Bush hadn't given any reasons. Saddam gave plenty.

-Pat

	04-01-2004 22:45									#30
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Don't you mean "Coalition of the Billing?" Man, I'm sure glad Palau was on our side.

A majority of the world was against us, and still is. Will it translate into government change is the question?